This whole Koguryo mess just keeps on getting better and better. On Tuesday, a whole lot of smack got spoken. And not just any smack. We’re talking industrial-strength smack. Batting leadoff was Foreign Ministry Asia-Pacific Affairs Bureau chief Park Joon-woo:
The government said that when Park Joon-woo, chief of the foreign ministry’s Asia-Pacific Affairs Bureau, visited China last week, he warned the Chinese that Korea would never tolerate China changing its textbooks to distort Koguryo history, and that Sino-Korean ties, which have developed since the establishment of diplomatic ties between Seoul and Beijing in August 1992, would face a crisis.
A government official said Tuesday that at the time, Park warned, “Should the Chinese government attempt to distort the history of Koguryo, the base of legitimacy of the Korean race and nation, we would never tolerate it. We are prepared to sacrifice anything.”
A nameless Korean official:
He said that while the issue involving the deletion of Koguryo history from the Korean history section on the Chinese Foreign Ministry homepage was a problem, the government was paying real attention to how the Chinese government handles its expected history textbook revisions this year in preparation for use in the fall semester of 2005. He warned, “If the Chinese government attempts history textbook distortion, our government will stake everything [that lovely Konglish phrase "all in"] on defending the pride of the Korean race.”
Deputy Foreign Minister Lee Soo-hyuck, you ask? All right:
On a radio show this morning, Deputy Foreign Minister Lee Soo-hyuck, chief of the government’s countermeasures committee handling the Koguryo history issue, said, “The urgent focus of our interest as of now is how China will distort [Koguryo history] in its textbooks, and how we’d respond should those distortions be carried out… We will strongly demand that textbook distortions not take place, while at the same time responding to this issue academically.”
Lee added, “I think China knows very well just how seriously the Korean government, public, press and politicians are scrutinizing this issue.”
And Lee ain’t fuckin’ around:
In particular, when asked whether Korea could practically adopt certain measures like strengthening relations with Taiwan, recalling the Korean ambassador from Beijing, and suspending summit-level diplomacy with China, Lee left open those possibilities should the situation deteriorate, saying, “We will watch the situation and employ appropriate diplomatic measures. There is no need for us to talk of completely ruling out the use of those cards.”
Wednesday was Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon’s time to get in the act:
Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon said Wednesday that, “The government will firmly tackle any attempts by China to incorporate Koguryo history into the history of China.”
Ban said at a regular briefing at Foreign Ministry headquarters that, “The government will press China to stop its distortions of Koguryo history and correct those distortions.”
Ban also made some other comments, too, which may indicate the start of a new and extremely dangerous twist to this game, but more on that later. Oh, Prime Minister Lee Hai-chan also spoke on foreign distortions of Korean history:
Prime Minister Lee Hai-chan ordered his Cabinet on Wednesday to examine how South Korean history is introduced in foreign nations’ textbooks, stressing a multi-sided approach is needed to tackle China’s move to distort Korean history involving the ancient Koguryo Kingdom.
“The people of other countries also need to know our history correctly,” Lee was quoted as saying by Jung Soon-kyun, head of the Government Information Agency, in a policy coordination meeting at the Central Government Complex building in downtown Seoul.
And:
Lee also asserted that South Korea should work in three different directions in dealing with China’s apparent history distortion, according to Chung, who acts as spokesman for the government.
“There should be distinct approaches toward China, the South Korean public and other foreign nations when coping with China’s attempts to distort history,” Lee was quoted as saying.
Chung explained the prime minister instructed relevant offices to closely monitor if there are any false descriptions of the nation’s history abroad.
On an academic note, Korea University professor Choi Gwang-shik, head of the Koguryo Research Foundation, claimed that China’s distortions of Koguryo history were more serious than the Japanese history textbook distortion issue:
His [Choi's] claims were based on two grounds. Firstly, in the case of Japan’s historical distortions, only one of the textbooks approved for classroom use by the Japanese Ministry of Education — the “New History Textbook” — was problematic, while in the case of China’s historical distortions, Chinese government bodies are driving the distortions. Moreover, China’s distortions do not stop at Koguryo, but extend to Balhae and Gojoseon — two other ancient Korean kingdoms — as well.
Choi pointed out, “If we go by what the Chinese are claiming, it might result in Korean history being no more than 2,000 years old, and in terms of space, it might be confined to only those areas south of the Han River.”
Ouch. But fear not — apparently, two major Chinese websites still refer to Koguryo as Korean. OK, that might seem a bit weak. On the other hand — and this would seem much more significant — the Dong-A Ilbo pointed out that maps in Chinese middle and high school history textbooks indicate Koguryo as a nation separate from China, which would seem to suggest that if China felt it had a long-standing claim to the history of the kingdom, it had a funny way of showing it.
OK, now I mentioned that the as-of-late embattled foreign minister of the Republic of Korea made some comments that were, to be frank, quite dangerous. According to the Korea Times:
In the meantime, Minister Ban added, “The Gando problem is a very delicate matter involving many countries, including North Korea.”
Ban’s remark drew special attention as it could mean that the South Korean government could take issue with the 1909 Gando Convention, which set the current border between China and North Korea, in the future _ probably after the reunification of the two Koreas.
Japan ceded territorial rights of Gando, which belonged to the Choson Kingdom before it was colonized by Japan, to the Qing Dynasty in 1909 for its exclusive rights to build and control a railway in Manchuria. Despite these changes, the inhabitants of Gando were mostly Koreans and the area remained under significant Korean influence.
Historians assert it is illegitimate, as the agreement was made during the period of Japanese colonial rule. Japanese treaties concerning Korea during the colonial rule were rendered illegitimate after the fall of the Japanese Empire. A group of legislators recently pushed for a resolution asserting the invalidity of the 1909 convention.
“Please, do not play up my words,” Ban told reporters. However, he clearly stated that the Gando problem is “a matter that should be dealt with carefully after collecting more accurate historical data.”
Three words. Holy. Fucking. Shit. What Ban has essentially done is left open the question of pressing claims on Chinese territory in the post unification era. Firstly, let me state for the record that with the possible exception of the hockey team-formally-known-as-the-Whalers moving back to Hartford, nothing would bring me more satisfaction than seeing the Korean flag flying from masts in Manchuria. Moreover, those claiming that the Gando Convention was “illegitimate” (not the term I’d use, BTW) have reason to cry foul, although a 1962 border agreement between the PRC and DPRK would seem to have settled that matter from a legal stand point, even if there were problems with the 1909 treaty.
Having said that, I have to wonder why in the world Ban would even discuss the possibility of declaring the Sino-Korean frontier null-and-void in public at this stage in the game. Firstly — and ignoring for the moment the whole Don Quixote-esque (for now) nature of the enterprise — given that China’s “Northeastern Project” and its claims to Koguryo history are at least partially defensive in nature (i.e., to head off potential irredentism from Korea in Manchuria), even the semblance of a territorial claim on what might be a rather significant swath of Manchurian territory is likely to make China even more obnoxious in its dealings with Korean historical issues. It might even prompt Chinese counter-claims on Korean territory. Secondly, the prospect of a strong, unified Korea making moves to either slice off parts of Manchuria or turn the region into a Korean “sphere of influence” is likely to prompt Beijing into making sure a strong, unified Korea never happens. Given how all of this should be pretty plain to see, I simply cannot understand how a man in Ban’s position could, in his right mind, fuck around with an issue like this. If this is all a ploy to get China to recognize Koguryo as Korean in return for a “Korean” recognition of Gando as Chinese territory, Ban has either got balls of steel or rocks in his head. One would hope its the former rather than the latter.
Now, this all begs the question, where the hell is Gando? Problem is, the term “Gando” seems to mean different things to different people and at different times. For our purposes, Gando roughly corresponds with what is now China’s Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture (Korean: Yenbyen Joseonjok Jachiju). This is a sizable slice of territory of 42,700 square kilometers and 2,184,000 fairly well-to-do souls, about 40 percent of whom are ethnic Koreans. Wikipedia probably has the BEST explanation in English of the historical and territorial issues involved in the Gando region — hats off to the Korean dude who took the time to write that. The maps are of particular note, as they give you an idea of both a) some of the problems involved in defining Gando’s territorial boundaries (hard to make a territorial claim if you don’t know exactly which piece of turf you want); and b) how guys like this (history junkies are advised to check out the photo collection at this site, BTW) are able to “think BIG” — I got the map above from their site.
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I can’t get myself to pay much attention to this historical debate — even though Korea and China seem determined to make it a contemporary issue.
I too would not mind at all if North Korea and chunks of Manchuria were in the control of the democratic South Korean hands.
But, my biggest thought right now is South Korea might not understand what it is getting into.
They were too used to pushing the US and USFK to adjust to the post-9/11 situation - so far. They seem determined to tear themselves apart with the “let’s shine the light of truth on our past” we see in the news these days.
And now they seem hell bent on taking on China for another historical argument - with a twist.
The twist is if China has in mind trying to take over North Korea if/when it collapses and base it on a Koguryeo historical argument. That seems like a big chunk for China to bite off. They would have to deal with much more than just South Korea. The US and Japan would not be pleased, and other nations around China would not like to imagine a colonial China rising.
But, beyond this somewhat limited potential, I don’t see where South Korea is going to gain by fighting China tooth-n-nail about this historical revision.
The idea South Korean society telling other nations what to write in their history books is still very ironic.
But, more than that to me, Korea doesn’t do well when it tries to muscle China. Look back a few years ago on the Garlic War where South Korea tried to use tactics on imports it has done with the US or Japan or even Chile, but only made to look weak when China smack them like a…..well….you get my point. China put huge tariffs on Korean telecommunication and chemical products and said, “You want to make billions on us with these but want to cry about peanuts for us? (almost literally).” Korea quickly backdown.
What I mean is that China’s economy is more important to Korea than Korea’s investment is to China. Korea shouldn’t move toward a fight with China unless it really believes it is really necessary. And if it accepts or picks a fight over the definition of Koguryeo, it kind of needs to put up the good fight and not back down when China whacks them
“The idea that we can learn from history is one professional historians usually abjure. They leave it to politicians….” (Michael Howard, The New York Times Book Review, January 10, 1988)
Another issue to consider, according to Suh Dae-sook, Kim Il-sung actually ’sold off’ parts of Baekdu-san (read: re-drew the Korea-China border) to China in the 1960s. See his biography of Kim Il Sung, pages 197-203, section entitled “The Sino-Korea Territorial Dispute.”
Now I don’t know anything for sure, but I’d be prepared to bet a nice dinner at Outback steakhouse that the ROK has never recognised whatever deal KIS wrought with Chairman Mao.
So let’s go back and re-do the maps there, come unification.
Re: China’s possible territorial claims on some or all of DPRK territory post Kim Jong Il, I wonder if the USA and Japan might passively accept it, as long as South Korea itself were not under threat. And I wonder how many South Korean politicians might be cynical realists and see a separate North Korea run by reformist Chosun-jok (ethnically Korean Chinese citizens) at the top just *might* be a more palatable option than endless streams of strong, healthy and hungry men coming to Seoul looking for work and accommodation, and maybe bringing some of the guns they carried in the DPRK army.
This is, of course, entirely speculative, but gee it sounds plausible to me. Let me know if I am way out of line, but gee, let’s try and keep this debate civil.
One thing is for sure. China doesn’t care about international opinion one bit and they will do whatever is good for them. I agree with usinkorea that Korea is use to shooting its mouth off against the kinder gentler countries of Japan and the US. China doesn’t take crap and they need to know that any childish tactics that worked with the US won’t work with China. Remember China actually broke into the Korean embassy in China a few years ago- and nobody in Korea said a word. The last time I remember this kind of disregard of diplomatic territory was in Iran 1979. It shows what China thinks of Korea and what they will do to achieve their agenda. Korea would do well to take caution with this issue and if they do take a stand- I hope they do, keep with it. If not China will know the good old days of Korea being its vassel state are back. Years ago Kim Jung Il even said that once Korea does reunify, US troops should stay. He knows whay China is capable of.
I don’t quite see your arguments on Mr. Ban’s Gando comments. First, they may be an effective method of retaliation. Second, I think the leadership of the MOFAT, despite what questionable (some would call “delusional”) pro-Chinese and anti-American attitudes many progressives in Korea may hold, are well aware that China is no friend of ours who will embrace Korean unification with open arms anyway.
Mankyongdae — Plausable, but not very likely. I doubt very strongly that any South Korean government would tolerate what would be, for all intents and purposes, a Chinese takeover of the northern half of the peninsula in the post-DPRK era. Yes, there might be short-term benefits derived from making the costs of reconstructing the North a pain in Beijing’s ass rather than Seoul’s, but in the end, Koreans are going to want it back. One of the very reasons this whole Koguryo dispute is so frightening in some quarters is that it seems as if China is limiting Korea historically to that part of the peninsula south of the Han River. In the event of a Chinese takeover of the North, such a limitation would no longer be simply a matter of historical debate.
As far as the U.S. and Japan tacitly accepting the PLA within an hour’s tank ride from Seoul and with potential missile bases on the Sea of Japan (East Sea), well, I can’t see it happening.
usinkorea — while I might be somewhat irreverent in the way in which I post about things like this (someone needs to maintain a sense a humor about it all), I take this issue dead seriously. While it might seem like meaningless argumentation over ancient history, history has a nasty habit of being manipulated in the interests of present-day politics. The fact that Chinese research into Koguryo seems to be driven by the Chinese government is telling. I don’t think anybody truly believes that these claims are being pressed because the Chinese Communist Party has suddenly taken a keen interest in unlocking the long-hidden secrets of ancient Northeast Asian history. There is a very current agenda behind it all, which I think is primarily defensive for now (i.e. China feeling insecure about possible seperatism and/or Korean territorial claims in the near future), but might turn unsettlingly offensive (i.e. claims on Korean territorial waters, border issues, and a slew of other potentially unpleasant things) depending on how things in the neighborhood develop.
Wooj — They may very well be effective forms of retaliation. Let’s hope to God they are, because by turning a historical dispute into a potential territorial dispute, Ban may have dangerously raised the ante. Territorial claims are no laughing matter, especially when you place one on a country with a billion people, 2.5 million of whom are under arms.
There’s another thing about it that bothers me, and it’s the same thing that irks me about Japan’s claims to Dokdo. It seems to me that one should raise a territorial claim only if you really intend to cash in on it, otherwise, you’re just creating a source of diplomatic friction for nothing. Japan knows that unless Dokdo goes to the ICJ (which Korea would never allow), the only way it would take possession of Dokdo is to do it the old fashioned way and land troops on it, which it clearly is not prepared to pay the political costs of doing, so why even bother making the claim? Sure, you might be able to trade the claim for something else (like better fishing rights) or turn it into domestic political capital (and these kinds of things eventually become overwhelming domestic issues eventually), but if you’re going to play that game, you’d better hope the costs in terms of potential damage to bilateral ties are worth it. In the case of Gando, the Chinese won’t be giving it up voluntarily anytime soon, and thanks to the North Koreans, it doesn’t even appear that Korea could even stake a legal claim to the region, so by making a territorial claim, Seoul would be creating a potential cancer in Sino-Korean ties and a new and possibly dangerous source of instability in Northeast Asia that it might — and I stress might — be able to trade for concessions on Koguryo history. I don’t know… stakes seem a bit high, and the pot don’t look that great.
But hey, maybe you’re right — perhaps the Chinese will look at Ban’s comments and say, “Oh my, those Koreans play for keeps. Best not fuck with them.” And it’s better that the Chinese learn early that Seoul will tolerate no nonsense, and as usinkorea points out, Korea didn’t exactly set the best precedent when in caved during the Great Garlic War (although in Seoul’s defense, it was “fighting” for a bad cause), and as non-korean pointed out, Seoul has given the Chinese plenty of reason to believe that they can have their way with Korea, so I guess now is as good a time as any to put the proverbial foot down. But there lies the danger — China has already shown a willingness to raise the ante with Korea, so if Seoul’s going to play the Gando card, it had better be prepared to play to win.
IMHO, one reason Ban may have said what he did is to get the GNP to shut up and stop politicizing on the issue, blaming the govt for China’s arrogance, saying China behaving in such a way because govt been soft with its response.
Fascinating material. This is why I look at your blog every day.
With this Goguryeo issue beginning to heat up, South Korea is about to experience some hard lessons in international politics. China is not going to back down easily, and they won’t do so just because South Korea demands that they do.
This is where allies and international opinion count. China might not care much about what Koreans think, but China has to deal with the world, too.
Unfortunately, much of the world won’t care much about what will seem to it to be an obscure historical argument over a long-extinct kingdom. What Korea ought to be doing is getting Japan and Russia (and don’t forget Mongolia) on its side by emphasizing that China’s claims about Goguryeo are not in their interests since these claims imply that China might later attempt to press for border changes — something that would directly affect Russia, for example.
But Korea needs to understand that none of these countries has any interest in helping to press Korean nationalist claims about a current right to the territory of Goguyeo. They aren’t going to support Korea against China to prevent China from legitimizing possible future border changes if this support entails accepting a Korean position that would legitimize Korea pressing for border changes.
This is where the hard lessons in international politics will be learned. Korea needs good relations with Russia and Japan, both of which are big powers and both of whose interests can coincide with Korea’s interests, on this issue and probably on other issues as China’s power continues to grow. Korea also needs continued, strong relations with its ally, the United States. Acrimony between Korea and the U.S. in recent years, coupled with the recent withdrawal of significant numbers of American troops, has probably given China the sense that a power vacuum is developing as the U.S. ‘appears’ to be beginning to disengage from the peninsula in response to Korea’s domestic politics. Korea needs to understand this point very clearly. If one great power retreats from a geographical region, another one will move to take its place. If Koreans want the U.S. out of Korea, then this is implicitly asking the Chinese to move in.
China’s actions on Goguryeo suggest that it may be doing precisely that, moving in by preparing the ground.
Jeffery Hodges
Couple of thoughts: First, on this Gando thing, where’s Russia? Seems a sizable chunk of Russian territory is involved. Second, although this might show me to be the dimmest bulb in the lot, what are the arguments for/against in the Korguryo debate? Is there any place on the net that provides factual data to back up claims either way? From my rather limited understanding of Korean history, a lot of it is anchored in Gojoseon. The whole 5,000 years thing comes from this ancient kingdom which, regardless of what transpired after, is the basis for all territorial claims of Koreans on the peninsula. I’m really curious how historians and archeologists have determined that these people of the past are a direct link to those of the present, other than the fact that they occupied the same territorial space. Any ideas of where to look for answers?
Assuming China prints up textbooks claiming Koguryo, what could Korea possibly do to go “all in” on this issue? Halt direct investment? Stop eating jjajangmyun? Bitch about it endlessly until the US/UN gets involved?
First, getting into the historical argument is a losing proposition unless you want to talk about it in an academic sense. I usually downplay the Koguryeo=Korean argument because I dealt with Koreans who make the argument too strong. I just can’t see a very strong argument to be made that the region we know of as Manchuria was once a unified “Korean culture” given how much we know about its long history of being a varied tribal semi-nomadic area. I haven’t heard a lot of evidence to say that these tribes that flourished there are very culturally similar to the Koreans. Even in the Koryo and Choson periods, which is late, the Korean government gave special consideration to people who would relocate to areas of now NK because of problems it had in those areas and with the non-Korean tribes further north. In Choson as well, people from the northern NK areas couldn’t service in the government and the territories were under military rule, not civil authorities. I’ve also heard Korean scholars say that the Parhae kingdom after Koguryeo time was a land of different non-Korean tribes ruled by a Korean aristocracy. Notice I haven’t mentioned the “Chinese” in this at all. I haven’t read their version of the history of this area, but it seems they have very little ground to walk on while Korea has some good claims, but even there…….it is a murky area to lay claim to
Perhaps all of this serves to underline what J. Hodges mentions, that China is preparing for a future that does not have a happy outcome for Korea. Perhaps it is now the time for South Korea to have the bomb and a system by which to deliver it. I think this is one of the few things that the Chinese seem to respect , not to mention the will to use such a thing.
Hi all.
“Usinkorea” You give it a 15% chance that China will send troops into a post-collapse DPRK. I like your analysis, but I give it a much higher chance, more like close to 100%, and think that’s why this issue is so important right now, and will potentially lead to more detente between the squabbling Korean brothers than any joint Olympic walk will. The political chaos that the Chinese move could unleash is mind-boggling.
Right or wrong, no self-respecting Korean is gonna stand for this Chinese shit. Every newborn Korean boy will soon be named Ulchi Mundok if this doesn’t get resolved soon.
Still, I think we should get up a coalition to pressure Mongolia to publicly lay claim to all of China, since of course China used to be ruled by the Khans and is therefore [by China's own logic] an integral part of Mongol history. See what the Chinese say about them apples.
What do you think, Marmot? Up for creating a new NGO on behalf of the Borjigids?
‘us may not help…’
i don’t doubt for a moment that the us will stay on the sidelines but even if it did, it would still most likely assist logistically in the war that would occur should china try and take any part of north korea.
‘the south won’t be able to do anything about it.’
you mean like vietnam? the chinese better be careful here and not misread the koreans. and please don’t assume that just because china has a billion or two people that they’re going to win; the koreans would have what the vietnamese had-the will to cast out the invader.
china can never win faced with such a formibable foe, usinkorea. the koreans are ancient, they will defend their territroy.
and they will win.
****
do the chinese really want to make enemies out of the korean people? korea is one of the few places in asia where the legislature (wrongly) votes to strengthen ties with the chinese mass. and what do the chinese do? they slap korea on the face after spitting on the japanese soccer team. and when they’re not insulting their neighbors in ne asia, they’re busy telling taiwan that it will have to reeunify with the mainland by 2050 and declaring the entire pacific belongs to them.
though i have little interest in things chinese, i was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but i can see china is becoming a menace to both asia, the west, and the world.
south korea should leak that it’s seriously thinking about becoming a participant in sdi. and just for psychology, both nk and sk should declare they’re changing the names of their countries to north and south koguryo. they should also secretly urge korean companies to start investing in vietnam and divert their money away from china.
lastly, korea needs to stop with the anit-americanism and realize that america can be a very good friend to have around. always good to get good with the biggest guy on the block. this is a blessing for us/sk realations and it’s not costing a dime.
Why are Koreans such whiney drama queens? It’s the Corean Sea and not the Sea of Japan, the West Sea and not the Yellow Sea, this kingdom from back in the Han dynasty days is Korean and not some Manchurian tribal kingdom, cultural and linguistic influences only went east to Japan and never the other way around, it’s Corea and not Korea cause the Jap overlords wanted us to follow them alphabetically. These histrionics have a way of adversely affecting mental health and make people more susceptible to those with more sinister motives, like the Americans who believe any problem is solvable if you’ve got a nuke aimed at it.
And then the stupid Amercians who are flailing around trying desperately to find a new Cold/Hot war enemy. The same Americans who live large on supersized meals at Micky D’s (the same kinda stuff making Chinese fat) and cheap ass everything at Walmart (thanks to Chinese imports) suggest that all of Northeast Asia nuclearize to justify keeping US troops and bases in the region. Tales of doom, gloom and woe to poor Japan, Corea and Russia should China be allowed to rise. Afterall, no power should be allowed to develop for fear it would possibly fail to kowtow to the US. This is the same US which is responsible for the nuclearization of the Middle East through covert and not so covert support of the Israelis. The same US which has plundered Iraq and now controls its oil supplies. Gotta love the shills on this comments thread who parrot official US policies under Corean pseudonyms.
Having a long term coalition strategy with other countries like Russia, Japan, and Mongolia as notsoslim suggests would help Korea when it deals with China. Repairing some of its soured relationship with the US would also help.
I would like to tell you that Korea alone would give the good fight but this aint no fairy tale. Korea was taken over easily by Japan and didn’t put up much of a vietnam like resistance. Vietnamese were willing to sacrifice their lives- most Koreans are not willing to do so. Vietnam faced an enemy that didn’t have the will to win- China does have the will and is ready to sacrifice many to achieve a goal it deems important. Vietnam was halfway around the world for the US- China is on Korea’s doorstep. This is why Korea needs to be more international and build coalitions just in case China decides to go for a land grab. There is no doubt China isn’t at least thinking of grabbing some port cities in Northeast North Korea to have access to the sea there. Look what they did in Tibet.
Alseyn wrote:
“Gotta love the shills on this comments thread who parrot official US policies under Corean pseudonyms.”
Alseyn, I see that you don’t know Shin Jong Il very well.
Jeffery Hodges
A prize for anyone who can point out any part of this that isn’t completetly IRRELEVANT AND IDIOTIC:
These histrionics have a way of adversely affecting mental health and make people more susceptible to those with more sinister motives, like the Americans who believe any problem is solvable if you?€™ve got a nuke aimed at it.
And then the stupid Amercians who are flailing around trying desperately to find a new Cold/Hot war enemy. The same Americans who live large on supersized meals at Micky D?€™s (the same kinda stuff making Chinese fat) and cheap ass everything at Walmart (thanks to Chinese imports) suggest that all of Northeast Asia nuclearize to justify keeping US troops and bases in the region. Tales of doom, gloom and woe to poor Japan, Corea and Russia should China be allowed to rise. Afterall, no power should be allowed to develop for fear it would possibly fail to kowtow to the US. This is the same US which is responsible for the nuclearization of the Middle East through covert and not so covert support of the Israelis. The same US which has plundered Iraq and now controls its oil supplies. Gotta love the shills on this comments thread who parrot official US policies under Corean pseudonyms.
South Korea would be hard pressed to fight China.
And I think there is at least a legitimate question of whether they would fight or not.
As someone else noted, it was not terribly difficult for Japan to move in and remain in control of Korea until defeated elsehwere.
Back then, Korea was way behind the game developmental wise. So the comparison between then and now has flaws. But, I would also add that South Korea does not want to unify with North Korea in the new future — period. They don’t want to risk their economic wealth in even a peaceful implosion of North Korea.
So, I wonder if South Korea would chose to fight a war with China over North Korea? Maybe, maybe not.
Even if Korea could turn itself into an Afghanistan, it would come at a price Korea isn’t willing to pay for even peaceful unification…..
As for what percentage possibility there is China would even attempt such a thing
check out the article in the atimes today written by a chinese professor on sino-korean relations. some will be pissed after reading it.
ps check out what chou en-lai said about koguryo at the korea times.
For everyone’s convenience, the Asia Times article is written by Yu Shiyu and can be found at this site:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FH14Dg02.html
The piece is probably worth a fisking, but I lack the time. Basically, his point is that the U.S. has always conspired against, dominated, or suppressed Korea, whereas China has always been Korea’s champion and has always stood up for it.
Whatever.
Anyway, Yu thinks that the Goguryeo issue is really no problem, that Koreans don’t take this very seriously, and that the Americans are the ones trying to create animosity between China and Korea.
Yu must be talking about a parallel universe that he has accessed via quantum portals or about logically possible universes that metaphysicians like to talk about, but in our actual world, Koreans do see China’s claim to Goguryeo as a problem.
Jeffery Hodges
HJH: The piece is probably worth a fisking, but I lack the time. Basically, his point is that the U.S. has always conspired against, dominated, or suppressed Korea, whereas China has always been Korea?€™s champion and has always stood up for it.
The Chinese are playing the yellow solidarity card again. The problem is that yellow solidarity in Chinese terms has always meant acting in China’s interests, which aren’t necessarily in the interests of its regional neighbors. The classic Chinese strategic principle has been to ally with faraway powers while guarding against next-door neighbors. This Chinese author is asking Koreans to reverse this principle. Given that the Chinese continue to have designs on much of East Asia that China used to consider vassal states, it is questionable whether it is in Korea’s interests to edge closer to China. Unless, of course, Korea wishes to begin a new existence as a long-lost Chinese province.
That Asia Times piece WASN’T worth fisking. Even Robert Fisk has SOME standards. That was a D- freshman composition that begs again the question of ATol’s standards. I can understand why the major university and the Ivy League that allegedly are hiring and publishing this Yu would not want to be named.
Interesting the double standards the people have. When Chinese refer to past ties and common interests it’s called “yellow solidarity” and when Western nations bray on about religious freedom and human rights that falls under the umbrella of the “civillized world”, “free nations” and democracy.
Yu is absolutely correct in pointing out, just as I did in my previous post, that outsiders are stirring up what has for the most part been a mutually beneficial relationship between Corea and China. Of couse this truth is lost upon some people who take offense when their nations dirty laundry is held up to the light.
At first, Alseyn insultingly criticizes Koreans for ‘whining’ about Goguryeo:
“Why are Koreans such whiney drama queens? … [They whine that] this kingdom from back in the Han dynasty days is Korean and not some Manchurian tribal kingdom….”
Then, he decides that it’s the foreigners who are causing all the trouble:
“[O]utsiders are stirring up what has for the most part been a mutually beneficial relationship between Corea and China….”
Let me see if I’ve understood you, Alseyn: This Goguryeo brouhaha is the fault of those whiney Koreans who don’t know history, but it’s really the fault of those hypocritical outsiders who don’t care about Korea’s debt to China’s benevolence.
What is this, a Zen koan? You just heard the sound of one hand clapping against my forehead.
Anyway, what do you have against “religious freedom[,] … human rights[,] …’free nations[,]‘ and democracy”?
Jeffery Hodges
Any confusion is in your own forehead so please, slap away my friend.
There are extremists in any country and it is common practice for those with ulterior motives to take advantage and use them to stir up the pot so to speak. It must also be uncomfortable for those who would prefer to stir from the shadows to have a spotlight shined upon them. Ahem. Your feeble attempt at obfuscation is pitiful.
I have nothing against those things you mentioned. I only object when some would use those concepts to paint others in a bad light so that they can further their own agendas. Western nations work hand in hand with their religious istitutions to enter third world nations and weaken them from within. Just ask the Indians. A nation of heartless heathens (or so Western relief organizations would have us believe) who needed a saint from the Catholic Church to comfort the lowest of the low in the slums of Calcutta. Well the truth is she milked a huge amount of money to support her little operation where the poor and unwanted went to die. All those millions didn’t go to support that little operation, it went into the Church coffers. When she was ill with heart trouble did she stay in her own comfort house? Hell no, she went to a Birla hospital. Why is it necessary to allow evangelical faiths to enter a sovereign nation and convert the populace? Better to keep out the Ibrahimic cults.
Let’s see, Alseyn, you initially wrote:
“Why are Koreans such whiney drama queens? It’s the Corean Sea and not the Sea of Japan, the West Sea and not the Yellow Sea, this kingdom from back in the Han dynasty days is Korean and not some Manchurian tribal kingdom, cultural and linguistic influences only went east to Japan and never the other way around, it’s Corea and not Korea cause the Jap overlords wanted us to follow them alphabetically.”
Now, you claim:
“There are extremists in any country and it is common practice for those with ulterior motives to take advantage and use them to stir up the pot so to speak.”
I see — when you called Koreans “such whiney drama queens,” you meant only that the small number of Korean extremists are whiney. Good that this is now clarified — I can stop clapping my hand against my forehead and also reassure my wife that, to paraphrase Twain’s quip about Wagner’s music, your language about Koreans is not as bad as it sounds.
As for Goguryeo, what you and Mr. Yu Shiyu don’t seem to recognize is that we’re not speaking about a small number of Korean ‘extremists’ who think that Goguryeo is part of Korean history. The vast majority of Koreans think this. And the nation stirring the pot is, ironically, China.
Jeffery Hodges
Yu’s asiacentric view is basically a Sinocentric view. Surprise Surprise the world revolves around China. Us non Chinese just haven’t figured that out…YET.
Yu never talks about China’s role in the Korean war. Briefly the US, UN, and SK forces did unify Korea. China didn’t like a unified Korea and decided to split it apart again. If it wasn’t for China Korea could be unified and be able to feed ALL its people under a capitalistic democracy.
It’s like this guy is trying the jedi mind trick on people.
“China is your fiend”
“China loves you”
Alseyn is upset because dirty Westerners are applying LOGIC to his shoddy and self-contradictory statements. Come on guys, play fair and let any string of gibberish pass.
- Where do you get the notion that the Koguryo dust-up has anything to do with the West? Read ANY Korean newspaper report on this for the past week before you post again.
My bet is that Alseyn is the same ‘tard who used to go by the name of Magoo on the Korea Herald. PLEASE don’t bring us down to that level.
Alseyn: [O]utsiders are stirring up what has for the most part been a mutually beneficial relationship between Corea and China
Alseyn criticizes me for stating that China is essentially putting out a yellow solidarity argument. I don’t exactly see what other argument the Chinese are making when they refer to Korea’s distant ally as an outsider. Like I said, it is classic Chinese strategy to ally with distant powers. The US is no outsider - it is an integral part of South Korean national security strategy. Americans and South Koreans share a common humanity. Both the US and South Korea are democracies that share a common interest in ensuring that Chinese territorial ambitions don’t get out of hand. The only thing that South Koreans share with the Chinese is skin color, and that’s what the Chinese mean when they refer to outsiders - Americans are outsiders in the same sense that they were outsiders when they reversed the progress of Japanese imperialism. Note that the yellow solidarity card isn’t particularly original - the Japanese also called for it when they were replacing European rule in East Asia with infinitely more brutal and oppressive Japanese rule.
Hey slim, the only tard on here is you. Just because I vent a little on Americans for their gov’s stupid policies in the world doesn’t mean you have to get all bent out of shape. It may surprise you but the world does not revolve around the US and its lackeys. The same thing could be said about a little shitbag country and its lackey, the US. Off hand I’d either say you were either stupid, a lackey, a crapper or all the above.
The fact that Koreans are whiney drama queens is not precluded by the fact that there are extremists in the broad cross section of Corean society that are winding up the rest with perceived wrongs on the issue of that little Han dynasty contemporary Manchurian kingdom. Now don’t let that get your undies in a knot Horace, I’m saying whiney drama queen in the best possible sense of the words. The silly things the Coreans get riled up about are just too ridiculous.
You see it’s sorta like the right wing religious fundies in the US. I would lump the Utahns in with these guys even though according to Church doctrine they are non-Christians. The RWRFs were an extemist group but through loud protests and careful manipulation of the media have gotten their guy into the White House. Because of their efforts US society has slowly shifted and become more religious and less tolerant of everything that seemingly goes against their values. These include stuff on tv (even cable and satellite), abortion, the Pledge and medical research. The way I see it Coreans are being manipulated by nationalist extremists and this is encouraged by the US.
The Chinese and the Coreans share common humanity as well and historically China has saved Corea’s bacon from the Japanese as well as the North Coreans from the US. There’s no doubt that China doesn’t want to conquer Korea or Japan. China wants to expand its economy just like Japan and Corea did. Why die when you can buy? What Corea and Japan need to do is to walk away from being US lapdogs and deal constructively with their big neighbor next door who’s growing richer by the day.
Very intellectual of you, Alseyn: “The same thing could be said about a little shitbag country and its lackey, the US. Off hand I?€™d either say you were either stupid, a lackey, a crapper or all the above.”
Let’s see some arguments that are not fallacious or off-base or racist. Explain why there are 10 million Muslims living happily in the intolerant United States as well as countless Hindu, Sikh or you-name-it temples. Then explain the beheadings of Christians in Saudi Arabia and Iraq and the killing of a Jewish journalist in Pakistan. Expain the Hindu mob in India whose response to Christian missionaries was to lock an Australian missionary in his car with two young boys and burn them alive.
The of course you’ll have to explain how bringing up all this religious shit has anything at all to do with this thread. If you were honest and decent, you would simply admit that you were dead wrong in asserting that the West is meddling in the Koguryo issue — which was your original fatuous departure — and then get on with the business of being a spiteful, hatred know-nothing SOMEWHERE ELSE.
All the ill-will you harbour for the United States or for Christians or for people of any country here who are better informed about China and Korea than you cannot turn your childish tripe into a respectable argument.
If what we’ve seen so far is the best you can do, we would ALL be better off if you logged on to say, bootlegjapan.com, turned off the lights, unzipped and had a private whank — instead of whanking publicly at the expense of serious people. Your daily masturbation in the privacy of your own home would also benefit mankind if it prevented you from fathering hateful and ignorant children to follow in your misguided footsteps.
Level just dropped…right down the Marianas Trench.
Alseyn wrote:
“The fact that Koreans are whiney drama queens is not precluded by the fact that there are extremists in the broad cross section of Corean society that are winding up the rest with perceived wrongs on the issue of that little Han dynasty contemporary Manchurian kingdom. Now don’t let that get your undies in a knot Horace, I’m saying whiney drama queen in the best possible sense of the words. The silly things the Coreans get riled up about are just too ridiculous.”
So, you’re saying that you intended your insulting words in the “best possible sense”? I doubt that this will satisfy my wife or my children. It’s one thing to criticize Koreans for their nationalism; it’s another altogether to convey contempt for them. That’s what you did, and my wife clued in on it.
Your polemics aside, China’s rise does pose problems for Korea since, historically, China has dominated Northeast Asia. What you seem not to realize — or not to acknowledge — is that China’s argument concerning Goguryeo is a destabilizing one for this area. If China’s claim to legitimacy in Manchuria rests upon a historical claim that Goguryeo was a vassal state of China, then implicitly, this is a claim to the northern half of the Korean peninsula.
This is a problem because if and when North Korea begins to collapse, China could move troops into the North “in fraternal solidarity with a traditional ally,” perhaps even by ‘invitation,’ and then remain there, claiming the North as its sphere of influence and as belonging to China anyway by virtue of having been part of Goguryeo.
Whether this is a likely scenario or not is beside the point. China ought not to be given the potential legitimacy to grab territory.
As for the identity politics of Koreans, and their view of Goguryeo as an integral part of Korean history, you might not like this, but it’s a political reality, and it’s not limited to ‘extremists.’
The irony is that until this Goguryeo issue, Koreans generally had a positive view of China, perhaps based on the civilizational affinities that Huntington has described. What is happening now is that civilizational affinity is confronting national identity, and I leave it to you to draw conclusions about which will win.
Incidently, I prefer “Jeffery.”
Jeffery Hodges
My apologies, Rhesus (and Robert), but please consider what I’m dealing with here. I guess I should have observed the adage: “Never wrestle with a pig — you both get dirty, but the swine enjoys it.”
Alseyn. China “saved” North Korea from the US. Wow!!! Looking at SK with American support and NK with Chinese support, I believe 99% of people would rather live in SK with the terrible represive Americans who help SK establish their economy and encourage democracy so SK can feed all its people and vote for who they want. The wonderful Chinese saved NK and now help NK by hunting down and killing people that want to escape from NK and encourage a represive communist regime that can’t even feed its people.
If this is your definition of saved- please never save me or anyone I know and love.
Sorry slim, my comment wasn’t directed at you. I just forgot to refresh the page before I posted.
Jeff, again, grow up. The newspapers in Corea? Yeah, run by whining Coreans. Bye-bye, whiner.
HJH: Explain why there are 10 million Muslims living happily in the intolerant United States as well as countless Hindu, Sikh or you-name-it temples. Then explain the beheadings of Christians in Saudi Arabia and Iraq and the killing of a Jewish journalist in Pakistan. Expain the Hindu mob in India whose response to Christian missionaries was to lock an Australian missionary in his car with two young boys and burn them alive.
HJH hasn’t even mentioned China’s sorry record - where Manchurians were massacred after the fall of the Qing dynasty, Japanese civilians were massacred after the end of WWII, all Japanese immigrants to China were forcibly repatriated to Japan and, during the Boxer Rebellion, tens of thousands of Chinese Christians were massacred and hacked to pieces. And yet, for some reason, China holds itself up as some kind of model for its yellow brethren. Given that China cannot even deal equitably with people of the same skin color, it is fortunate that it has not been able to realize its territorial aspirations even further afield.
Zhang Fei, actually, Slim is the one who wrote those words about the “10 million Muslims living happily in the intolerant United States. . . .”
Jeffery Hodges
Hey slime, any hatred of the US you see in my writings is due to your own sorry sorry lack of self esteem. It’s high handed US and Western government policies I have a problem with. Speaking of missionary BBQs, more power to the people man! Jai Hind, my brother! Evangelicals can go whereever they want and attempt to convert whoever they choose to but if in the course of their actions they get eliminated from the gene pool then who’s fault is it? But then again it’s a small enough price to pay to grow the flock and keep the coffers flush. It’s apparently the organizational policy so get with program.
Don’t be so proud of those Muslims in the US or for that matter any brown skin people. Don’t forget that they’re being homeland securitied into terrified silence at the moment. And then let’s not forget Chaplain Yee. Yep, real tolerant the US. I wasn’t wrong in any assertions I made. What’s lacking here is not my honesty but your intelligence to understand the arguments I make. But then again, I’m expecting too much from you my rednecked Walmart shopping friend. Please, though you are no doubt the foremost expert on wanking on this board, I’d appreciate it if you kept those techniques private and didn’t share them with the rest of us. Now run off and wank, you’ll feel better.
Oh yeah, gotta love those tolerant God fearing Christians in the US…
http://www.thestate.com/mld/st.....378079.htm
Zhang Fei, there have been massacres as long as there have been people. To bring up masscres from China’s history just emphasizes Chinese humanity. Again, as for the Christians, who cares? They and their bretheren have been fighting and slaughtering one another since ancient times but when a government picks off a few to keep out the monkeys and their monkey business it’s a bad thing?
Jeff, grow up a little. My contempt is only for those who deserve it. There’s nationalism and then there’s stupidity. Arguing over Korean and Corean is stupid as is arguing over Japan Sea or East Sea. The same goes for the rest including the stuff about Han dynasty contemporary Manchu tribal kingdoms. No one has made arguments over land and doubtless there will be no such arguments made and no troop movements either. People who fear such things are simply insecure.
Chinese actions during Corean war are totally understandable, non korean. Instead of blaming the Chinese for North Corea why don’t you blame the Kims? Sure as shit China is worse off economically than North Corea. Yeah right. You might as well blame the problems in Cuba on the Russians. If you want to be saved, slime can introduce you to some nice men in black robes with their little black books who will make you see the Light.
Bubbles rising to the suface…
Alseyn began with an ad hominem directed toward me:
“Jeff, grow up a little.”
Then, he iterated his contempt for Koreans:
“My contempt is only for those who deserve it.”
Meaning Koreans generally, I presume, since the points that he raises are ones that most Koreans will argue about:
“There’s nationalism and then there’s stupidity. Arguing over Korean and Corean is stupid as is arguing over Japan Sea or East Sea. The same goes for the rest including the stuff about Han dynasty contemporary Manchu tribal kingdoms.”
Alseyn then says:
“No one has made arguments over land and doubtless there will be no such arguments made and no troop movements either. People who fear such things are simply insecure.”
Really, no one has made these arguments? Alseyn needs to read a few more newspapers here in Korea.
Look, Alseyn, there’s reasoned debate, and there’s ad hominem attack. Most of your posts here have been of the latter sort. Responding to them is no longer worth the time and energy.
Jeffery Hodges
‘the irony is before this goguryo issue, the koreans had a rather positive view of china, perhaps based on cultural affinities…but what is happening now is that civilizational affinity is being confronted by national identity, and i leave it to you to draw conclusions on which will win.’ yet another brilliant statement from Mr Jeffery Hodges
word to ya motha, chinaman. word to ya motha.
‘whinney koreans…’
koreans had the good grace to work with the japanese on pulling off a successful co-hosting of the world cup. they didn’t spit on any of the japanese. in fact, the world cup was good for both nations. that’s in sharp contrast to chinese behavior towards the people of japan. if they’re not spitting on the japanese soccer team, they’re rioting in the streets over a skit performed by some japanese exchange students. and when the chinese tsau-gaus aren’t doing that, they’re busy trying to steal another people’s history and in the process making enemies where none existed before.
careful, china, you don’t want to see korea and japan revert back to the relationship they had in the beginning, do you? that beginnig would be the same time you chinese were starting koguryo and speaking an altaic language with a horse based culture. you remember, don’t you? what a crock of shit.
and btw, i forgot to put in one other thing korea needs to do to tackle the thieves of beijing. the koreans need to let go of the japan bashing because it gets in the way of closer relations with the japanese who aren’t so crazy about the chinese either. perhaps this issue with goguryeo will help illuminate the commanalities between the japanese and koreans that have existed for literally thousands of years.
i’m hoping so.
Asia by Blog
Asia is an interesting place… Hong Kong, Taiwan and China Tom follows-up on the fate of Chinese dissident law professor Yuan Hongbing. He also has a further follow-up on Li Dan, a well-known Chinese AIDS activist, and reports on Roger Moore’s visit …
Asia by Blog
Asia is an interesting place… Hong Kong, Taiwan and China Tom follows-up on the fate of Chinese dissident law professor Yuan Hongbing. He also has a further follow-up on Li Dan, a well-known Chinese AIDS activist, and reports on Roger Moore’s visit …
Alseyn, boy, when you’re in a hole, the best thing to do is stop digging. You’ve had so many new assholes ripped in your backside that there’s no flesh left for us to work with.
You’re not even very good at the two things you do best — hurling racist insults and regurgitating discredited, self-loathing 3rd World claptrap. My advice to you is to complete your high school education before returning to this board. At least learn how to spell Korea for starters.
Alseyn, boy, when you?€™re in a hole, the best thing to do is stop digging. You?€™ve had so many new assholes ripped in your backside that there?€™s no flesh left for us to work with.
That’s some extremely unsettling imagery.
I’m sure some Japanese AV site will be offering the video before too long.
Hey slimey, what is your predilection for anal cavities? Just because you spew non stop crap doesn’t mean your mouth is an ass - well then again, perhaps I’m being too generous. Perhaps you should be less concerned with ass and more concerned with brains since you are obviously lacking in that quality as is evidenced with your pitiful lack of response to what I’ve written. The only one here who is revealing his lack of education is you. How typically American, declare victory where there is none and run off with your tail tucked between your legs. Now, bugger off, have a good wank and calm down.
I vote slimey the one here most likely to be perpetrate something like this…
http://times.hankooki.com/lpag.....010160.htm
He’s obviously deranged with all the stuff he posts on tearing of human flesh and what not.
Could we clean things up a bit down here? I really don’t want to have to close down the thread.
Close down this “thread?” You’ve got my vote. You really are indulgent to the trolls, Robert.
Or should I say in this case, “the troll.”
Apologies to the Marmot for my excesses, but I truly believe that what that troll was trafficking in was perilously close to hate speech. Alseyn appears to be a toxic mixture of far-right Hindu skinhead, eight-year-old child who thinks he knows it all, and mendacious North Korean negotiator. The spread of literacy and the Internet to benighted parts of the world sounds good in theory, but……..
Hey Marmot, thanks for the interesting site and sorry if I offended you. I’ll try to restrain myself in the future regardless of what the wannabe netcops may spew.
Oh and to slimey, please put away the thesaurus, dictionary and your Strunk and White - you’re not fooling anyone but your own deluded self with your string of SAT words. Cheers!
brilliant
Asia by Blog - Month in review
Thank you to everyone for the good wishes. Everyone is doing well. Now to keep you going…as part of the Winds of Change team I provide a monthly briefing on Asian goings-on, particularly China and SE Asia. I thought this would give me a good opportun…
Simon’s E. Asia Overview: Aug 25/04
It’s time to have a look at East Asia and what’s been making the news in Asian blogs over the past month. We cover China (in depth), as well as Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, Japan, and Southeast Asia (Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore et. al).
download 50 cent in da club
More smack talk and Ga…