First, a little locker room bulletin board material:
Wei Cuncheng, a professor of the Jilin University and expert on Koguryo issue, said, “Koguryo was a regime established by ethnic groups in northern China some 2,000 years ago, representing an important part of Chinese culture.”
– “China’s ancient Koguryo Kingdom site added to World Heritage List,” People’s Daily, July 2, 2004
The Great Sino-Korean Koguryo War heats up!
Seems the wankers at the Chinese Embassy in Seoul have been playing games again. It initially appeared that the embassy was going to refuse tourist visas to a group of 12 Grand National Party lawmakers looking to visit Koguryo relics in China. They had planned to leave Friday but as of Friday morning, no visas had been issues, despite the group having applied for the visas two weeks ago. The lawmakers called Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon to bitch about the Chinese attitudes, after which the Foreign Ministry called the Chinese, also presumably to bitch about their attitudes, and the visas were issued. The lawmakers were forced, however, to delay their departure until Saturday. A party of Uri Party lawmakers, too, reported difficulties in getting visas — one lawmakers reported that at the time of application, the Chinese said they would have to wait for instructions from Beijing before they could issue the visas.
OhMyNews’ Kim Tae-gyeong wonders whether this was China’s way of remembering the participation of some Korean lawmakers in the Taiwanese presidential inauguration ceremony in May. At the time, China threatened to “remember” those lawmakers who went to Taipei, and although none of the lawmakers involved in this latest incident went to Taiwan, Kim still has his suspicions.
The Chinese, for their part, deny that the delays were caused by recent tensions over history or Taiwan, claiming that in the case of high-ranking figures, visas need to go through certain procedures that, unfortunately, take a bit of time. The embassy also claimed it only received the visa applications from a certain travel company on Monday. Personally, I don’t know what’s up with that, although Rep. Kim Mun-su said the embassy was very inquisitive about what their activities would be in China. I don’t happen to agree with the Chinese position on the Koguryo matter, yet I don’t find it completely unreasonable for embassy staff to look somewhat askance at a group of conservative lawmakers visiting historical sites that are at the heart of a pending bilateral disagreement.
- The Koguryo issue has brought all of Korea’s major political parties together — kinda:
Political parties on Friday said that they will launch a committee in the National Assembly to deal with Beijing’s alleged distortion of the history of Koguryo, one of the nation’s ancient kingdoms.
A group of 46 lawmakers from the ruling and opposition parties also submitted a resolution to the Assembly, urging China to stop distorting Korean history and calling on the Seoul government to more actively address the issue.
They voiced strong criticism of China for deleting Korea’s ancient history from its Foreign Ministry’s Web site and demanded proper countermeasures from the Seoul government to prevent similar incidents in the future.
“We cannot tolerate the Chinese government’s move to misrepresent Korea’s history and the removal from its Web site of all Korean history up until the establishment of the government in 1948,” ruling Uri Party floor leader Chun Jong-bae said. “We will form a joint committee in the Assembly to tackle the issue.”
Chun went on to say that China’s act may seriously damage ROK-China relations, urging the Beijing government to restore the content of the Web site in question to the original before Koguryo was deleted in April.
I say “kinda” because GNP chairwoman Park Geun-hye used the opportunity to lash out at the Roh Administration for its passive attitude toward Chinese historical distortions, claiming that if the government had shown half as much effort protecting Korean history from Chinese aggression that it has in trying to rewrite contemporary Korean history, this problem wouldn’t have grown into the mess that it has become. Interesting Park quote:
I’ve talked about our “national identity” concerning the [president's role as] protector of the constitution, but now, concerning the Koguryo history issue, an incident has taken place that shakes our “ethnic identity.”
Man, I wish her speech writer would stop using that damn word, “identity” (Korean: jeongche-seong).
OhMyNews has a choice selection of lawmaker quotes on the Koguryo issue, like this one by Uri Party spokesperson Im Jong-seok:
If China, which knows well how deadly historical distortions through absurd statements by Japanese politicians or visits to shrines can be to good neighborly and friendly ties with Asian nations, is distorting history being virtually led by the Chinese government under its Northeast Project, it would be quite unfortunate for Asia.
In a statement on Friday, the 71-man “Lawmakers Group for Establishing the National Essence,” said:
It’s self-evident that the Chinese Northeast Project that has been pushed for the last couple of years is not a pure research subject at the academic level, but historical distortions pushed at the government level… The Chinese conspiracy to absorb our entire ancient history like Koguryo, Gojoseon and Barhae is a violation of our historical sovereignty and an act of plunder.
Think people are mad? The group added:
We will push the formation of a special committee on Chinese historical distortions at the parliamentary level, and support logical and aggressive research of Koguryo history to confront China’s Northeast Project… We will push for intra-Korean political exchanges so that the two Koreas can launch a joint-response to China’s historical distortions, while at the same time we plan to push for a change of the English spelling of our country to COREA, which gives life to the identity of our people.”
OK…. Anyway, the Democratic Labor Party took issue with the government’s tepid approach to Chinese historical distortions, claiming that while China has been preparing for the Koguryo history issue since 1996, Korea has only five Koguryo history researchers. The party also slammed the Chinese government, saying its distortions of Koguryo history represented a “hegemonic attitude.” It was kind of nice to see the DLP use the H word in reference to a nation other than the United States, although DLP lawmaker Noh Hoe-chan would say at a youth camp Friday morning that the commotion over Chinese historical distortions was the “natural result” of Korea’s “diplomacy of humiliating dependence on the United States and humility before Japan.” He then called on the government to completely reconsider its long-term conceptions for a peace system in Northeast Asia and the diplomatic line required to bring such a system about. Interesting take on things, because some might argue that what’s happening now might be the natural consequence of the deteriorating relationship between Korea and the United States. - Apparently, former Unification Minister Jeong Se-hyun left behind a considerable stash of crack when he left office:
South Korea is considering joining with North Korea to address China’s continued distortions of Korean history involving the ancient kingdom of Koguryo, vice Unification Minister Rhee Bong-jo said Friday.
“As inter-Korean cooperation on China’s misrepresentation of Korean history has gained momentum through various civilian exchanges, we will seek diversified measures after working-level consultations with the North,” Rhee said during a press conference.
“In accordance with the historians’ consensus on the need to preserve and restore Koguryo’s cultural relics, such as mural paintings and burial mounds, we hope to provide financial and technical assistance to the North.”
Good luck with that, although I’m sure the North Koreans will be open to any kind of financial assistance you might wish to provide.
- On a related note, and quite a serious one at that, a certain Chinese newspaper quoted a researcher at some Chinese naval research center as saying:
According to the 1982 UN Law of the Sea treaty, China has 3 million square kilometers of territorial seas, but of this, 1 million square kilometers are disputed with Korea, Japan, Vietnam and others…. China must exert diplomatic and military efforts to protect its the sovereignty of its territorial seas and undersea resources.
I’ve taken the liberty to link to Global Security.org’s page on the People’s Liberation Army Navy (yes, it’s really called that) so that Korean readers might become familiar with Chinese warships before they start showing up off Incheon.
- I don’t make it a point to link to Kimsoft in general, and rat commie Lee Wha Rang in particular, but this account of Koguryo history is pretty cool as long as you can get past stuff like this:
The Koguryo revival (’boom’) hit the right cord with the youth of Korea. Today, 70 million Koreans are crowded into a tiny peninsula. Once upon a time, the mighty Koguryo lorded over a large chunk of today’s Chinese territory, and today’s Korean nationalists view the ‘lost’ territory with a hungry eye.
41 Comments
Fer once sin jong il and I are in agreement.
Yes, I have done the word searches, been doing them since 1991 in fact, and I have seen for myself the clear relationship between Koguryo and Old Japanese languages, but contrary to what a Japanese reader might interpret that to mean, I think the only reasonable interpretation according to the evidence in the words themselves is that speakers of Koguryo migrated across the sea and landed in Japan. Not the other way around. The languages are very closely related, but Koguryo was not “Japanese.”
That’s as far as our agreement will go however. Sorry Sin.
I still can’t see where you get off claimaing that any state that ever extended its borders into the peninsula is somehow thereby “Korean”, by definition, especially when it is clear from their language that the words they spoke are not ancestral to modern Korean. Might as well say the Mongols were Korean as well, or anyone else who invaded and incorporated peninsula land into their states. Because in fact, that’s all Koguryo did. Yes, they also built one of their capitals here, but China–with the Lelang outpost and Japan also set up regional administrative sities in the peninsula. Does that make China and Japan “Korean” too?
Still, I think we’re making pretty good progress if you and I can see eye to eye on anything.
Maybe that’s what Korea and China need to do is find what they can agree on first, and then work on the disagreements later.
Til then, see ya around.
Do you suppose that the CIA is keeping track of all this as if it really is a big deal? Wonder if they’re there right now furiously typing up reports and analysis to provide to some semi high offical for review….
Ah the world we do not see.
I wonder about the Lee Wha-rang stuff at Kimsoft, seeing as how he mixes up the location of the Silla and Baekche kingdoms on the map on the first page of the Koguryo article. For me, this throws everything else open to suspicion.
And you know what makes this entire situation especially funny for an informed outsider? The linguists are well aware that few known words of the Koguryo language show NO simularities with either Korean or Chinese or, for that matter, languages of peopls now described as ‘etnic minorities of China’. But they have very, very close analogues. Guess where? In which language? OLD JAPANESE, of all things! In other words, linguistic evidence seems to suggest that Koguryoans were speaking a dialect of Early Japanese. But few people outside narrow circles of professional linguist dare say so in public.
North Korea will never denounce this because they dare not bark at their Chinese masters…
‘koguryo speaking a dialect of old japanese.’
it’s not likely the inhabitants of the islands off the coast of korea transmitted their langauge or, as you say, their dialect to the korean kingdom of koguryo. it’s more likely that it’s the other way around so we might say that japanese came from an old form of a language spoken by the ancestors of the korean people.
‘linguistic evidence’
i don’t care how you slice this, the fact of the matter remains that less than a hundred TOPONYMS are known to us today. to take such a small vocubulary and determine conclusively that the koguryon language had no relationship to shillan seems a bit foolish in light of other evidence that points clearly to a relationship between the two languages. you see, the grammer of korean and japanese just keeps getting in the way of those who have their agendas. when two languages have for all practical purposes an identical grammer and syntax, that’s a really big indication that the two languages are closely related.
‘but few people say outside linguistic circles.’
the issue was discussed in another thread. the theory is well known.
Just wondering, wasn’t Korea derived from Koryo or Koguryo, based on some foreigner’s travel to Korea? Or does the name Korea have no relation to Koryo or Koguryo?
Seems the love in is over.
The Kogury?? language.
One of the guys quoted as reference in The Koguryo Language, at the kimsoft page, Sasha Vovin, is an old friend of mine and great linguist — from the Japanese dept of At Manoa U. He is also very knowledgeable on Korean (and many other neighbouring languages). But he is also someone with sometimes some whacky/interesting theories. Everything said on something as poorly documented and open to, er… extrapolation, let’s say, as Kogury?? is to be taken with a pinch of salt. This is why in my [unfinished] PhD thesis I drew a line at the 10th Century. Anything before that is best left to geniuses of freaks.
oops, forgot to close a tag. Sorry Robert!
Dear Sin Jong Il, I believe that Holysmokedude has already replied to you. Just two additional remarks.
First, you are correct when you say that “it?€™s not likely the inhabitants of the islands off the coast of Korea transmitted their language or, as you say, their dialect to the Korean kingdom of koguryo”. But I did not say so. The proto-Japanese population, by all accounts, are relativeky recent migrants, and they could reach the islands only via Korea. Indeed, quite sufficient evidence points that it was what actually happened some 2000 years ago. Koguryo is likly to be a relict of that proto-Japanese population which once lived somewhere in Manchuria, together with (related, but not that closely) proto-Koreans, as well as with other tribes lignustically ancestral to modern Manchu, Paleoasiatics etc. The issue is that Koguryoan a) is not ancestral to modern Korean (hangugo is a direct descendant of Sillanese); b) while not ancestral to modern Japanese, is much closer to it. To use European analogues, it’s a bit like relations between Gothic, German and French. All three languages are related, but long extinct Gothic, while not being a direct ancestor of modern German, is much closer to it than to French.
Second and more serious. History has always been falsified and misued for the nationalist purposes, but few areas can rival East Asia in this regard. Now we see how two EA nations, each driven by purely nationalist considerations, fight over the heritage of a lond extinct country whose inhabitants spoke the language which has no direct descendants and whose close living relative is spoken in a third country. In regard to the events of the 1st or 5th century AD, it is meaningless to use modern labels. But of course nationalists will do it all the way, and this makes their ‘history fights’ such funny an bizzare sights.
lankov, i think you’re ‘notsoslim’ with a name change. the korean kingdom of koguryo is korean because the koreans of today are the descendants of that kingdom. can you understand that? i know you don’t want to but that’s the truth, sorry.
and your ‘horse rider’ theory for the japanese has largely been discredited since we know that most of the immigrants to the islands off the coast of korea came from the three korean kingdoms of shilla, paekche, and koguryo.
japan never had a any administrative territory in korea until the modern age. kaya was and is korean.
lastly, the world acknowledges that koguryo, paekche, and shilla are part of korea’s histiography. know that hurts but that’s your problem. maybe if you let go of your japanese nationalism, you will see the light.
Shin Jong-il,
why don’t you go and have a glass of milk while the adults discuss this issue? You are wrong on so many things (starting with your attitude), but I will bother to just tell you this: Prof. Lankov is not the same person as anybody else on this blog. He doesn’t need an alias.
For those who are interested, Prof. Jared Diamond (of “Guns, Germs & Steel” fame) wrote a very worthwhile article on the origins of the Japanese in 1998. It can be read here without any registration or login, but sadly with no pictures. True to Prof. Diamond’s multi-disciplinary approach, he pulls together many areas of research (including, but not limited to, language). Check it out.
For those who want a more up-to-date and more technical offering by Prof. Diamond than the foregoing article (which was published in a popular science magazine owned by the Walt Disney Corporation), they can look here. Full Text : Diamond and Bellwood, Farmers and Their Languages: The First Expansions, Science 2003 300: 597-603 The only problem being that this site requires a registration and log-in.
This article is also well worth a look at, and presents the perhaps surprising theory that Japanese speak what was once a Malay-Polynesian language. It includes information about Koguryo, Puyo and other Korea-related matters.
Finally, to Prof. Lankov: thanks again for your insightful comments. I will stand with you on the sidelines while the nationalists of three East Asian nations misuse the history of a pre-nationalistic era to slug it out on the battlefield of popular history.
‘you are wrong on so many things…’
till you’re ready to say what i’m wrong about, i think you best shut up, kay? professor lankov? i don’t give a shit about no professor lankov! i’ve seen plenty of ‘professors’ make statements that are clearly wrong specially when it comes to the issues at hand.
‘lankov don’t need allies…’
then what the hell did you write what you wrote for, asswipe? attack me, get attacked. eye for eye, ya hear, good ol boy?
???????º?æ??æ?‘?€‘????¸???²?²¡?”?! ??“?ººæ?????????º?,???????º?æ????“?ºº!æ???™½?
A personal note: a professor-title doesn’t impress me very much, Mankyongdae. There might be professors who will tell his audience in a convincing, well-argumented way that planet earth is in fact a plate. Ah, Ivy League Prof., you must be right, hence the academic title…
But it’s up to Mr. Shin Jong-Il to reply to your post.
Anyway, the argumentation of “this is a discussion of adults”, indicating at the same time, that an involved discussion participient is too “childish” or not “mature” enough to take part in a dispute is infantile in itself.
…surprising theory that Japanese speak what was once Malay-Polynesian language - Mankyongdae
Why surpsrising. Before the influx of people from the East Asian continent to the Japanese archipelago (besides the Ainu people), the Malay-Polynesian language theory isn’t breaking news.
For those of you who know the difference between the word ‘alias’ and the word ‘allies’, for a good website on North Korea, complete with articles by Prof. Lankov . And of course he’s in the Korea Times several times a week, and co-hosts Rebecca McKinnon’s blog.
To Shin Jong-il, I could help to further downgrade the debate, but why bother? Why don’t you stop acting so childishly (like using simple curse words, and assuming that people who challenge your assumptions and cherished beliefs are Japanese nationalists) and contribute something positive?
Uh, Mr. Shin Jong-Il was faster (and furious :)).
SJI — Just so you know who the “Japanese nationalist” in question is, Dr. Lankov is a lecturer of Korean history at Australian National University and a respected authority on North Korea. He co-runs this website, and he posts over at NKzone as well. Now, that doesn’t mean he can’t be wrong, and you’re free to disagree with him, but I’m not sure that your suggestions that Dr. Lankov is somehow a “Japanese nationalist” really applies in this case, especially considering how I haven’t read anything in his comments that could be construed as “pro-Japanese.” Anyway, I’ll let him address the issues you have raised, as I won’t pretend to be able to speak for him as well as he could speak for himself.
Dr. Lankov — I appreciate you taking the time to comment on my blog. Glad to see you’re working with NKzone, too — you guys over there are doing some excellent work.
Sin Jong Il, what’s up man? I’m “notsoslim”. Couldn’t you tell from the writing style?
Jeezus, we can’t discuss evidence rationally around here, because you keep insulting people. Why not just give it a break, eh?
This is a serious issue, and the last thing we need is you with yer fingers in yer ears “la-di-da-di-da I can’t hear you”, every time someone gives you a suggestion to read.
You claim the Koreans today are descendants of Koguryo as if it were god-given fact, but you don’t have one shred of evidence to back you up. Not one linguistic, archaeological, or genetic piece of evidence. Not one.
All you have is the cultural tradition of modern Korea that links you to Koguryo. But these trations are not evidence. Just because 47 million people believe a thing, doesn’t make it true. And just because every graduate of Seoul National University [that fine institute of learning] teach something doesn’t make it true either. The truth is in the facts. Look them up sometime.
When others try to discuss the real evidence—the words that these people spoke, for example, all you and your clone “Sugar” do is throw insults.
Well you know what, not only are you losing the argument, which you have no way to win anyway, but you make other Koreans look stupid.
FWIW, all the Koreans in my classes [no I'm not an English teacher] all seem quite open to the fact that Koguryo is “Korean” in only a symbolical and mythological way. Most educated adults today, even in Korea, seem capable of understanding that allegations without evidence are not worthy of white-knuckle death grip adherence.
We sent you many, many links to scholarly articles on this topic a couple weeks ago. Have you bothered yet to open even one of them?
Til then, just hold off on the insults, ok?
Koguryo is “Korean” only in yer mind. And that doesn’t count for real history.
Welcome to reality, bubba.
Does it make fun to change your IDs like your underwear, “notsoslim”, “holysmokedude”, “Kim Young Sam” or possibly “Shin Jong Il’s conscience” etc. etc. etc. pp.
…and your clone “Sugar”… - fucking name-changing prick
We sent you many, many links to scholarly articles on this topic a couple weeks ago. - schizophrenic, multiple identities bearing loser
Whoever you are, in comparison to your blahblahblah, I could get away as a fucking genius. Yo know, I woulda like to swear a litta bit MOORE in my Pidgin-style English, butt yo know, I coulda do sumthin’ useful instead.
Ooh, that was great Sugar. Yep, you’ve proved beyond any doubt now that Koguryo was clearly ancestral to Korea.
Thanks for the great response and all the factual information you provided.
You’re a credit to Korean scholars everywhere.
Take care.
Shin Jong Il:
“i personally have too much class to argue with the above statement; it?€™s his country and his heritage. what makes many of you want to argue with koreans about their heritage and identity?”
“i can?€™t understand why a bunch a white guys from the west would care at all. the fact is that many of you couldn?€™t care less about the ancient kingdom of koguryo; just another opportunity to lick your frickin wounds.”
I’m a graduate student in Korean studies, but my area of focus is modern history, so I’m not qualified to talk about Koguryo.
But I do find Mr. Shin’s argument bizarre. Are you saying that people are only qualified to make statements about the history of their own countries? My, what an insular world it would be if that were true. Taking your example, if you were a scholar in Egyptian history, why shouldn’t you feel free to debate with Egyptians about the way they present their history? So what if you’re Korean? The idea that one can only critique one’s own heritage and not that of others is totally ridiculous. So when Mr. Shin asks, “what makes many of you want to argue with koreans about their heritage and identity?” I answer, because that is a subject I have chosen to spend most of my life studying! Why bother learning a difficult language like Korean, immersing oneself in dialogue about Korea’s history, if the end result is that one is not qualified to debate with Koreans? What is the point of that? The majority of people who want to debate and discuss Korean history are, naturally, Koreans. I’m not only going to debate Korean history with Westerners; no offense to Western scholars of Korea, but the Korean studies community in the States is still relatively small. I refuse to limit myself to dialogue with non-Korean scholars.
I am constantly asked by Koreans about why I’m interested in Korean history. Sure, I have my own personal story about my original connection with Korea (I had a lot of Korean friends when I was young, most of whom I met through the classical music community), but the real reason is that Korean history is fascinating! It’s just an interesting subject to study in an academic sense, and one that not enough people outside of Korea care about. I have no illusions that my perspective is any better than that of Koreans just because I happen to be a relative outsider to the culture. It’s just a different perspective, that’s all.
This Goguryeo issue is clearly a very sensitive one, but we need to approach it as rationally and dispassionately as possible.
I’m no expert, and in fact, I know very little about Korean history — my field of history being Western civlization. But from what I’ve learned by studying history, I can perhaps suggest something.
A nation’s roots are always complex, and the same holds true for Korea. Even if Goguryeo was ethnically mixed and even if the ruling elite spoke a language with links to Old Japanese (about which, I know nothing), this would not prevent Goguryeo from being a part of Korean identity. If there are historical, territorial, cultural, and lingusitic links, even if some of these are tenuous and debatable, and if a claim about a shared identity has been maintained over many generations, then a degree of identity exists.
Take the example of the English. They speak a language (English, in case you wanted to know) that derives from Anglo-Saxon, which is an early Germanic language. When the Anglo-Saxons came to Britain starting in the 5th century, they fought with the local Celtic tribes, displacing them but also mixing with them. Over time, the English nation developed, and in the post-1066 Medieval period, part of this development entailed the elaboration of the King Arthur legend. Arthur was, it seems, a 5th-century Celtic Christian king who repelled some of the pagan Anglo-Saxon invaders. The Norman French who had deposed the Anglo-Saxon rulers loved these stories, and the early Arthur texts were in Old French. But the English, emerging from Norman rule, also adopted the stories as their own. So, you get the Middle English story “Sir Gawain and the Green Knight” (a wonderful tale, incidently) presenting Arthur in a way that suggests that the English-speaking audience would identify with him as part of their own history. Prior to the Norman invasion of 1066, the English might have seen less connection to Arthur (assuming that they’d even heard of him) and far more to Beowulf, one of the culture heros of the pagan invaders. Beowulf had been forgotten by the time of Sir Gawain (14th century) and had to be rediscovered some centuries later. Today, both Beowulf and Arthur are aspects of English identity, even if narrowly construed.
My point: The claim of an identity, over time, creates an identity.
Koreans have long claimed that Goguryeo is part of Korean identity.
China’s claim to Goguryeo is very, very recent, so far as I can see. Otherwise, they would have no need of suppressing their own website or rewriting their history textbooks.
This would not necessarily be problematic if China were making only minimal claims in order to ensure that there be no border disputes between China and an eventually reunified Korea.
But China is making maximal claims about Goguryeo having been Chinese territory because it was, supposedly (according to the Chinese), a vassal state to China.
The problem with this maximal claim is that if accepted without dispute, it gives China the right to ‘inherit’ North Korea when it eventually falls. It’s hard to imagine that the Chinese leadership is not thinking about this possible future scenario.
China’s intentions are not entirely clear, but their argument that previous vassal states now belong to China’s history might be meant to imply that the geographical regions of what were once these vassal states also now belong to China’s political territory.
That’s a very destablizing claim, one that spells trouble for Northeast Asia.
Jeffery Hodges
‘because you keep insulting people…all you do is throw insults…’ holysmoke
‘why don’t you go and have a glass of milk and let the adults discuss?’ mankumdae
‘…………’ holysmoke to mankumdae
uh, you were saying, holysmoke?
‘we’ve sent you many articles…’
who is ‘we’? perhaps you are using ‘we’ in the same way koreans use ??°??? ‘ooree’. i don’t want a list from a google search, holysmack. i want specific titles that prove your acertions. in other words, books you’ve read. in that light…
‘not a shred of evidence…’
please give me the specific titles on koguryo that you yourself have read that prove your contention. i’ll be waiting, ok?
‘the egyptians of today are the same people who built the pyramids of ancient egypt.’ professor hawass on pbs.
i personally have too much class to argue with the above statement; it’s his country and his heritage. what makes many of you want to argue with koreans about their heritage and identity? need revenge, don’t ya all?
‘can’t tell the difference between alias and ally…’ mankumdae
well, yes i can. i can also tell you a ally of the ‘professor’.
this issue is important to me because it’s my heritage. my mother’s ancestral home is in the far north of korea and you better believe that i see the people of koguryo as being part of myself. now, i can understand why china is making the acertions it makes since it fears any claims on its territory but i can’t understand why a bunch a white guys from the west would care at all. the fact is that many of you couldn’t care less about the ancient kingdom of koguryo; just another opportunity to lick your frickin wounds.
koreans are tough. you should have known that before you went to korea. if you ain’t tough yourself, you cannot survive the koreans. it’s your own fault you have the wounds you have.
??°????????, ??°????³??????¤. æ?‘?€‘?????Œ??², æ?‘?€‘??????????º?.
our history, our koguryo.
btw, holysmoke, just a reminder: please provide me with the list of books you yourself have read on koguryo that prove your contention that there’s ‘not a shred of evidence’.
holysmoke, i’ll bet you don’t speak korean, japanese, or chinese, do you?
so mr marmot, you and lankov write together on this board? it’s funny that i thought notsoslim was you and also thought that ‘professor’ lankov was notsoslim. ain’t that funny mr marmot?
‘mommy, the koreans are being mean to me!’ cried holysmoke
‘well, then why do you live with them, fall in love with them, and have children with them?’ asked mommy
please give me the specific titles on koguryo that you yourself have read yada yada yada?
btw, holysmoke, just a reminder: please provide me with the list of books you yourself have read on koguryo that prove your contention that there?€™s ?€?not a shred of evidence?€™.
Are you two complete idiots or just unable to read English?
I already provided you that info. More than once. Other posters have done the same. Go back and find the list of articles and papers posted here about three weeks ago. That list wasn’t pulled out of the air at random like most of what you two post here.
Everything on that list has been through my reading list at least once during the past 13 years. And a hell of a lot more.
Serious inquiries never stop at the “Lonely Planet” series, or even at Peter Lee or Lee Ki Baek
But that’s all beside the point.
I keep showing you articles, books, monographs, papers, etc. ALL tending to show that Koguryo was not ancestral to modern Korea, and the only response you two wooses have is to put your fingers in yer ears and scream: “??°????????, ??°????³??????¤”
Don’t you see how incredibly ignorant that is?
Open your eyes, just once. Just once. Read the info.
It’s all there for your reading pleasure. Much of it is even free.
The truth may hurt, I know. But you can’t change the truth by pretending it doesn’t exist.
So, here. Here are a few books and articles that I have read personally, and found helpful. Give ‘em a try, ok? And stop spouting meaningless bullshit drivel about your mother’s ancestral heritage. What a crock. I bet you’re pretty embarrassed that a bunch of “western white guys” [a pretty racist statement given that you've never met me, asshole.] know Korean history better than you. It’s never too late to learn though. Just have to be willing.
Now go and get started. Pay particular attention to Miller. Almost anything he has written over the past couple of decades will be helpful. I’d suggest paying specific attention to Nelson too, but she’s a woman, and given the blatant bigotry you’ve spouted here lately, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t appreciate reading anything written by a woman, especially one who is smarter than you and doesn’t agree with you. And FWIW, Prof Nelson speaks near native Korean, and loves this country as much as you, but does so with open eyes.
Nelson, Sarah Milledge, The Archaeology of Korea. Cambridge University Press, 1993.
Beckwith, Christopher (2004) Koguryo: The Language of Japan?€™s Continental Relatives, Brill Academic Publications.
Hyung Il Pai– Constructing “Korean” Origins, A Critical Review of Archaeology, Historiography, and Racial Myth in Korean State-Formation Theories
Miller, Roy Andrew (1979) “Old Japanese and the Koguryo fragments: a re-survey.” In Bedell, xx et al. (eds.) Explorations in linguistics: papers in honor of Kazuko Inoue, pp. pp. 348-67. Tokyo: Kodansha.
Lewin, Bruno (1973) “Japanese and the language of Koguryo.” Papers of the C.I.C. Far Eastern Language Institute, Ann Arbor 4 : 19-32.
Rhee, Song Nai (1992) “Society and culture of Huanren-Jian region prior to the emergence of Koguryo state in light of archaeological data.” In Ancient Cultures of Northeast Asia: their origins and development, p. xx. Iri: Wonkwang University.
Rhee, Song Nai (1992) “Secondary state formation: the case of Koguryo state.” In Aikens, C. Melvin & Rhee, Song Nai (eds.) Pacific Northeast Asia in Prehistory, pp. 191-196. Washington State University Press.
Aaron and Horace,
Eloquently stated, both of you. Points well taken. Thank you for your participation in this sometimes caustic debate.
It behooves all of us to maintain open minds and cool heads.
Thank you.
nss
Asia by blog
Another look at Asian blogging… Hong Kong, Taiwan and China Tom reports that my homeland is caving in to pressure from China on a refugee application. You can imagine the reception waiting for her when she gets back to China. China is facing a shorta…
When North Korea collapses I think there is a 50% chance China will do nothing but reinforce its border to protect its territorial integtity. This Goguryeo controversy might be nothing more than this. But I think there is a 25% chance that they will go for a small land grab in the North east part of North Korea. China would love access to the sea of Japan/East Sea and the port cities of Sonbong and Najin are perfect for China’s ambition. I give another 25% chance that China will go go go until they meet South Korean/US troops somewhere in the middle of the old North Korean regime and there the order will stay. Korea was very smart picking the US as an ally. Japan, China, and Russia - its larger and more powerful neighbors have had territorial ambitions in the past and the US has never wanted to incorporate Korea into the US. I have always wondered why many Koreans have had such a wide eyed desire for China to be big and powerful while hating the US. In the end China might be the one to swollow them up and they have no one to blame but China and themselves.
notsoslim, YOU are making the claim that runs counter to what is accepted. it isn’t up to ME to prove anything to you since what i say is what’s accepted. do a google search and almost everywhere (including koreaweb, home of korea scholars)you turn, you find koguryo and korea go hand in hand. you make a claim that runs counter to this. it’s up to YOU to prove it.
as for your telling me to do more research if i’m really serious, i don’t think so. i don’t need to. the world already accepts my position and doesn’t accept yours. what’s for me to research?
thank you for the list. i may or may not get around to them. this subject is far more interesting to you than it is to me as you seem to spend a lot of time trying to support your claims that korean people’s history is not korean people’s history. 13 years, huh? you don’t seem too successful in getting the word out.
it must be scary for the japanese when they look into their origins; everywhere they look there’s the word korea. language from koguryo. people form paekche.
i’ll bet you’re simutaneously working on a way to tell koreans paekche isn’t theirs either, notsoslim.
work hard in promoting your counter-claim. i know it’s important to you. good luck.
ps whether i look foolish to you is really neither here nor there. who are you? a nobody, really.
??°??? ?????, ??°??? ?³??????¤.
??œ???????œ ?????¨ ??¼?³¸?????Œ?“¤???, ??¸?§€?§???¸??”.
And oh, the tears did fall…
The Chinese are going to eat both Korea and Japan and it won’t matter what language was spoken where or when.
Think of terms of empire and conquest.
“Heute Koguryo, danach die Welt.” would be the correct German phrase, Jing.
Achtung!
Heute Koguryo, dann nach die Welt.
Sin said—”??°??? ?????, ??°??? ?³??????¤.
??œ???????œ ?????¨ ??¼?³¸?????Œ?“¤???, ??¸?§€?§???¸??”.”
Nope. Not a trace of blind nationalism in that statement. Pure rational debate based solely on the evidence. Good job there, Sin. You’re a credit to Korean scholars everywhere. Thanks for this major contribution to the advacement of knowledge.
Since you’ve so succinctly settled this one for us, we’ll all just move on to much more important topics now, like whether the two Koreas will be able to march together into the Olympics symbolizing their eternal unity and friendship.
Kumbaya, brother.
notsoslim, you think me a fool and that’s ok but i put those kinds of slogans up there because i know that kind of stuff drives people like you ape shit
Oh, so you’re saying you don’t actually mean it? You weren’t sincere about it? It’s just something you say to get a reaction? Cool. You think the other 47 million of your countrymen feel as impartially as you?
By the way, before this argument of ours goes further out of control, let me say, despite whatever differences we’ve had here, and lord knows we’ve had some big ones, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to each post. Thanks for that.
You may disagree, but I’m approaching this subject not from the perspective of who is right and who is wrong [because frankly I don't know, and neither do you], but rather from the perspective of–”Much of the evidence disagrees with the traditional Korean view. Neither does it support the Chinese view. Let’s look more closely.”
You and Sugar [and others] may not appreciate my sincerity in doing this and may question both my motives and my approach, but before you “knock my teeth out” [Sugar, are you there?] understand that I have spent most of my life living in Korea and studying this people, probably longer than you have even been alive. Although I am resigned to the fact that Korea will never accept me as anything other than a long-term resident foreigner because I don’t have a drop of Dangun’s blood in my veins, I respect this country and its people more than you will ever be able to understand.
If I come across as an asshole at times [and I admit that I do] it’s because I also see a huge tendency here in Korea to ignore any facts the don’t firmly agree with the traditionally accepted view. This tendency is shared by all peoples and cultures, but I think it’s is unusually prevalant in Korea and not particularly well concealed.
The whole concept of korean “Han” is dangerous, especially right now. It’s somewhat like going into battle [in this case an ideological battle against the Chinese] without any ammunition.
When Koreans [and everyone] can look more closely at the facts behind the allegations, they will be able to more successfully combat the Chinese culture grab. But doing nothing but parroting the stories of the Samguk Yusa will accomplish nothing. The Chinese government is sitting back and laughing at Korea’s helplessness right now.
Who cares, you ask? Perhaps no one, but keep in mind that this issue will likely not be decided by guns and cannons, but by public opinion. The whole world is watching, and Korea is putting up a terrible fight so far. Mostly whining and moaning about being “robbed’ of their cultural legacy.
No one is going to buy that. Korea is the world’s 10th richest power, the world’s most educated country, and a major player in modern international politics. Is this the best they can do, the most they can say in their own defense? I hope not. But only time will tell. Stay tuned.
So, anyway. I wanted to say that. And I appreciate you taking the time to read it.
Now, back into the ring…there’s still mud to sling.
Perhaps after this is all over we can meet for a drink and laugh about it. Just so long as Sugar promises not to hurt me.
What your mommoy told you when you were five is of no importance outside your own bedroom. - Kim Young Sam alias notsoslim
And you don?€™t know the age-old, time-honored playground rule that every boy should spiritualize: ?€œNever talk dirty about other guys?€™ mommies!”. If we both would be five year old boys again - dude, you would have kissed my toes with your bleeding teethless mouth. Sangnom. - me, Sugar Shin
This “knocking the teeth out” reaction of mine was because of your inclusion of my beloved mommy in our little mud battle. That’s all. I’ll drop out of the mud slinging fest and look on for other opportunities (there’re always plenty of them at Marmot’s) to spread my personal (not “Korean”) opinions. Meanwhile I’m gonna sharpen my battle axe with a mean grin on my face. Tee hee hee.
Meanwhile I?€™m gonna sharpen my battle axe with a mean grin on my face. Tee hee hee.
As well you should. That’s the whole point of these discussions. I look forward to giving you plenty of opportunities to use that axe of yours. Keep it sharp though, and light. I’m not a soft target.
See you around.
Asia by Blog - Month in review
Thank you to everyone for the good wishes. Everyone is doing well. Now to keep you going…as part of the Winds of Change team I provide a monthly briefing on Asian goings-on, particularly China and SE Asia. I thought this would give me a good opportun…
Simon’s E. Asia Overview: Aug 25/04
It’s time to have a look at East Asia and what’s been making the news in Asian blogs over the past month. We cover China (in depth), as well as Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, Japan, and Southeast Asia (Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore et. al).