You know, those of us Westerners who are married or otherwise attached to Asian women constantly have to listen to “yellow fever” and “fetish” accusations. It doesn’t help, however, when you got foreigners spouting off crap like this to the largest daily newspaper in the Republic of Korea:
Why are American film stars into Korean women? Kenny, an executive at a LA Koreatown broadcasting company, said in an interview with a Korean broadcaster that, “Korean women are submissive and kind. They are known to make breakfast, lunch and dinner for their husbands, help their husbands well, and raise children well.” There are also those who feel that in the eyes of Western men, East Asian women possess a sort of mysteriousness about them. They say that one can grow fond of the unknown “Orient.” 24-year-old James Cecil, an American living in Korea, said, “Even Korean women who are not though of as pretty by Korean men can give a sense of mystery to Western men.” 29-year-old English teacher Mike Conforty said, “Korean women are gentle, feminine and quiet. I think Korean women are the prettiest of all East Asian women.”
Western men also seem to find the purity and conservativeness of Korean women attractive. 25-year-old USFK soldier Blake Selesnew said, “American women are too materialistic, but Korean women aren’t. They seem less snobby.” Korea University English instructor Zane Ivy said, “Korean women are conservative. They are conscience of what people around them think, depend on their families and parents and are submissive.”
OK, the Chosun didn’t help here by selectively quoting expats who clearly come off as having Asian fetishes, giving many of its less open-minded male readers exactly what they wanted to hear. I don’t necessarily have a problem with someone saying Korean women are beautiful — like any other country, there are a lot of beautiful women in Korea (unclad examples of whom often grace this blog), and I can see how a 25-year-old English teacher just off the boat might find the local scenery particularly appealing (I must confess, however, that I’ve been here long enough that I’ve started to find white chicks “exotic”). Nor do I have a problem, per say, with someone saying they find Asian women particularly attractive physically — hey, whatever turns you on. Going on about docile, submissive women, however, is extraordinarily unhelpful to those of us who are actually in real relationships, not to mention it delves into the kind of cultural generalizations (Koreans are this, Westerners are that…) of the variety that I can’t stand. Hey, if you want Madame Butterfly, fine, but please, don’t go talking about it to reporters, for Christ’s sake.
Oh, and while I fully understand why my employer would focus attention on Hollywood couples (and I think Wesley Snipes and Nikki Park genuinely look great together), did we really need to cite Nicolas Cage and Woody Allen as typical examples of Western men involved with Korean women?
UPDATE: Owen’s discusses the same piece over at Rathbone press. Western women might find it disturbing.
{ 18 comments… read them below or add one }
You know, when Korean men marry Phillipino’s, or Russians, or Chinese….no problem….
Some Asian men have this maddening, maddening, face-saving reflex when they comment on Male/asian Female couples…suddenly really out of the blue, unbased accusations of “fetish” and “sellout” start coming up. The pathetic accusation of “banana” is saved for any Asian who disagrees with them…. the Asian spiritual KKK.
Very noticeable, is that when Korean men marry non-Korean women (statistical large majority) these outraged men have nothing to say, no problem. There are signs throughout the Korean countryside offering farmers the chance to get a Phillipino bride…that are being called, good for those intelligent young Korean farming men.
Last, the Chosun Ilbo is not tabloid trash. It is the conservative side of Korea. If the CI prints an article hating interracial marriage, you can bet:
- the Chosun Ilbo suffers from institional racism
- interracial marriage is a growing phenomenon in Korea
I just about burst out laughing when I read that article. Korean women are submissive?!? Give me a break.
A couple of points — the article in question may not necessarily have originated in the Chosun proper, but the Sports Chosun, in which case it would be tabloid trash. I translated the piece, but I don’t recall where it was found. And I’m too lazy to go look for the original (which was slightly longer) now.
Another thing is that while there are a number of double standards as far as this issue is concerned, I’m not sure if the one you cite (marrying Southeast Asian women) is one of them. Traditionally speaking, while there were strong stigmas attached to women marrying outside the tribe, for men, the concept of marrying a non-Korean was absolutely unthinkable. It is with Korean men, after all, that the responsibility of passing down the bloodlines rests. There were exceptions like Syngman Rhee, but they were few. Things have changed somewhat, and rural demographics now are such that men who, Confucianism be damned, have needs have been forced to take extraordinary measures to find companionship. I’m not sure if we could call this a major shift in societal attitudes, however. Even today, in many instances, if an educated urban man brings home a non-Korean bride, the shit will hit the fan. That being said, things are changing — I had a couple of male acquaintances who were married to decidedly non-Korean women, and they seemed to be getting along just fine. It’s not the Chosun Dynasty, after all.
Another thing is this — while I really hate the “sellout” and “fetish” talk, there are reasons why such talk is so prevelant. The West has, after all, had what we’ll generously call an “unequal relationship” with Asia for the better part of the last 200 years. And not to sound like Edward Said here, but Western literature, films, and cultural media in general have perpetuated stereotypes about “Oriental” women, and those stereotypes are still with us, and those stereotypes are in large part a product of the imperial experience. Madame Butterfly and the World of Susie Wong did not represent Asian women as they really were. but as the white man wanted them to be. And it didn’t help that in the places where Western males and Asian females often interacted — the gijichon, for example — the relationships often did resemble the colonial myths, given the extreme power imbalances. Things have changed, obviously, and now even Korean men are using their new found wealth to enjoy the pleasures of local female companionshipship in lesser developed countries. Hey. I’m sure if the shoe had been on the other foot and the Chinese colonized the West, people in Beijing would be listening to operas about submissive, exotic white chicks. And to some extent, you do see a certain “white fetish” among some Korean men, especially as it applies to the Russians. But let’s face it — centuries of fetishization and exotification don’t disappear in a day.
And like I said, it doesn’t help when we got the guys above perpetuating those myths.
“Korean women are gentle, feminine and quiet.”
this guy has never dated a korean woman. what an idiot. i think violent, loud, and agressive might be closer to the truth.
As one of those foreigners married to a Korean woman, I concur with the Marmot and other commenters: Korean women are NOT submissive. My wife has never been one to submit (not that I’ve ever expected her to). She’s also the most stubborn person I’ve ever met — matched solely by my own, hardscrabble, Ozark stubbornness. In addition, she’s hardworking, intelligent, and reliable and has far better people skills than I. In short, a much better version of me.
In case she reads this post, let me add that she’s the most beautiful woman in the world. I, on the other hand, have a face like a fencepost.
Jeffery Hodges
Personally, this story smells like one of the Chosun’s “Let’s make up the quote” stories (just a hunch… they did that to me once). Even if those are real quotes, so what? Who are those 4-5 guys they quoted? Why did they quote them? As usual, Korea’s leading newspaper has no idea how to build a decent, logical, supportable story. Which is a a shame, considering how many smart people work there, and how many of them have some training in journalism ethics and requirements in the United States.
-too shy to sign
despite all the fine comments on this post, and on the rathbonepress, no one has yet mentioned the most obvious reason why long term expats take up with local women. simply if you stay anywhere long enough you will go native. men will be men after all and i don’t see any reason needed other than biology to explain this no brainer. where the chosun ilbo found those idiots i have no idea but they don’t need to find dumbass excuses for finding the local talent attractive. and korean women are submissive? jesus! a more suspicious mind would suspect that these guys have never actually dated let alone married one.
Try this
http://www.fredoneverything.net/AsianWomen.shtml
My Korean wife just yelled at me for reading this..
Submissive my a**
Would be nice to see if these guys were quoted accurately, Zane Ivy seemingly the easiest one to find. If he was quoted accurately, find out what medication he’s taking.
I just read the link posted by Jay42. Pretty interesting and mostly on the mark, I think. For those too lazy to cut and paste, here it is again: Click me.
I think there are cultural differences that can be stated as generalizations. But we have to remember that we are comparing medians, not every individual member of both groups. There are always variations in every culture-group.
I agree that Korean women are most certainly not submissive. But they also don’t treat men like the enemy, which I think is probably the main difference that I have noticed. Many women in the States seem to have an attitude of “men are scum, but you might be an exception.” That lasts until you do something she doesn’t like and then you are confirmed as being scum like all other men.
For starters: I am married to a remarkably undocile, unsubmissive Japanese woman, and live in Japan. However:
“Going on about docile, submissive women, however, is extraordinarily unhelpful to those of us who are actually in real relationships..”
I don’t understand. How is what other people say unhelpful to your specific relationship? Why do you either of you even care what others think?
Seriously.
“those of us Westerners who are married or otherwise attached to Asian women constantly have to listen to “yellow fever” and “fetish” accusations”
Ditto. People talk all the time, usually without saying anything. Why should you care what some Tom, Dick, or Harriet says?
After meeting my wife for the first time, one (unmarried) Japanese woman proclaimed she knew he reason I married her. It was because she had “almond-shaped eyes”. So, it’s not just Westerners.
Not so long ago, I read about some interesting research results. A team of scientists mapping the genes of gorillas in individual tribes somewhere in Africa made an amazing discovery.
The male gorillas were extremely fierce when it came to protecting the tribe from males out hunting from another tribe, or indeed, any intruders at all. The researchers had to wait until the males were out foraging for food to temporarily put the females and children to sleep to get gene samples.
They assumed that because of the behavior of the males, there would be very little genetic variation.
They were shocked to find the opposite. In fact, when their surveys were done, they found that *more than half* of the tribe’s children could not possibly have been fathered by any of the tribe’s males.
In other words, when a tribe’s males were out foraging, they were bagging more than just food. And it turned out to be like the Johnnie Taylor song: “Who’s making love with your old lady while you’re out making love?”
Females of the species are naturally disposed to be sexually interested in males from outside the immediate area. Likely this is hard-wired to mix up the gene pool to the greatest extent possible.
I’ve even heard about Australian men complaining about American men in Australia getting it on with the women, if you can believe that.
On a cellular level, we all must be aware of this. Newspaper articles in places like South Korea that allude to this are just an echo of the behavior of the gorilla males when other male intruders show up.
It’s not really possible to “think” about this issue anyway. The nerve endings for “thinking” are in different places than the ones being fired here.
Marmot, yet another well-written piece.
Thanks for the note on the Rathbone link, but there’s nothing new there to offend any western woman who’s lived in Asia.
BS, your multifaceted comment rocks.
Especially that last line about nerve endings.
Another thing is that while there are a number of double standards as far as this issue is concerned, I’m not sure if the one you cite(marrying Southeast Asian women) is one of them.
Of course, the reason the farmers are marrying women from Southeast Asia is that no Korean woman would have them. Is that what’s up with you guys? Couldn’t get a white woman? I knew it! I KNEW IT!
Seriously, get the chip off the shoulder and stop worrying about what other people think or say. If you are in a good relationship with a Korean/Japanese/Ugandan/Martian female then enjoy it and relaw. Life’s too short to worked up about what other people think/say …
Here’s more on ‘submissive’ Asian women.
I attended a presentation today (June 18) at the International ELLAK (English Language and Literature Association of Korea) Conference. There, I heard a talk by Professor Kaori Mori, Shibaura Institute of Technology, Japan, “Eurasian Daughters in Limbo: Racial Encounter in an Era of Globalization.”
Mori ‘argued’ that Eurasian daughters hate to be seen with their Caucasian fathers because they “have to feel like being their father’s prostitute.” Mori means that they imagine that others will think that they are prostitutes because they look Asian and are much younger than their fathers.
How did Mori arrive at this conclusion? Here’s how:
“The disappearance of racial segregation against Asians has encouraged outmarriages. Yet, why do Asian women marry white than Asian men? Kitano and Daniel mention the reason why Asian or Asian American women tend to outmarry than Asian American men is that ‘[white] males are looking for the stereotypical Asian female — good at housekeeping, service-oriented, willing to stay home, and sexy’ (199). As a result of white men’s desire for submissive Asian women, interracial marriages between Asian women and white men increase.”
I haven’t corrected the English in this quote because I’m not entirely sure what, precisely, Mori intended to say in the grammatically incorrect portions. The argument seems to state that Asian women marry white American males because these white males want an Asian sex-slave for a wife.
The implicit link to the daughter’s putative feeling is a quasi-Freudian assumption that the daughter identifies with the mother and thus feels herself mistaken for the sex-slave wife. Or something like that, I reckon.
Incidently, while I don’t know the text by Harry Kitano and Roger Daniels, Asian Americans: Emerging Minorities (New Jersey: Prentice Hall, 1998), I rather doubt that this was their point; otherwise, why the selective quoting? But someone in the know can clarify this, perhaps.
Jeffery Hodges
How dare Dr Mori not allow any agency for the Asian women in the case of interracial marriages. What I’d like to know if she ever asked any interracial daughter?
Culture Studies ?짧? ?짠???째??짚 ?짠??짠흹. There is a reason we anthros like to keep them at arms length…
And the Occidentalism (re “Orientalism”) that many in “the East” manage to display in talking about the West, of which Kaori Mori seems to be here a fine example.
Jeffrey Hodges asked me to post the following, as his own reply was rejected as spam for some reason.
Agreed, Dr. Mori implicitly denies active agency to Asian women in her statement. And it’s particularly hard for me to see how white men’s (supposed) desire for ‘submissive’ Asian females would constitute the reason that Asian women marry these white men. That’s a ‘logic’ that would have to be delineated step by step for me.
I don’t want to be too hard on Mori in particular but instead to point to her talk as an example of the sort of sociological generalizations uttered by literary theorists untrained in and thus untrammeled by social-scientific methodology.
They read some novels that show characters making assertions, link these to some current literary theory, and then generalize to all of society, perhaps cherry-picking quotes from some sociological study as empirical ‘evidence.’ It doesn’t seem to occur to such literary critics that what they’ve focused upon might not have any statistical significance at all. They might simply be taking outliers as the norm.
In brief, we have people ungrounded in history, untrained in social sciences, and unconstrained by methodology making sweeping generalizations about social facts. Without blushing.
Jeffery Hodges
PING:
TITLE: Asia by blog
BLOG NAME: Simon World
The twice weekly round-up of what’s making blogging headlines in Asia, in the extended entry. Well worth a read, there’s some real gems in there….
PING:
TITLE: Asia by blog
BLOG NAME: Simon World
The twice weekly round-up of what’s making blogging headlines in Asia, in the extended entry. Well worth a read, there’s some real gems in there….
[...] ; Robert Koehler @ 1:34 am
Back in June, I cited a story from the Chosun Ilbo on [...] ; Robert Koehler @ 1:34 am
Back in June, I cited a story from the Chosun Ilbo on http://blog.marmot.cc/archives/2004/06/16/ah-those-mysterious-submissive-asian-women/“ target=”_blank” title=”Blog: Ah, those mysterious, submissive A [...]
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