Any nation that does not instill some idea of patriotism or pride in their own citizens may face domestic problems (keeping the nation together) or international problems (not being able to face up to groups with a stronger sense of self interest).

While all this is just the way things are, the trick is to minimize the damage to human life. The problem comes when those in power place what they believe to be their own benefit (or that of their nation) well above human costs.

We can all sit back and theorize on IR, but then, I think very few of us suffer an air strike during our weddings.

The problem with law and abstract ideas that help the world function is that people tend to forget that they are artificial constructions serving some material purpose. When they start to cause harm is when they should be adjusted. And I agree that they should be adjusted quietly, so the masses (and their opium) are not unduly disturbed. There are apparently a quite a number of ex-defectors back in the USliving quietly.

Another example: the Japanese gov had for some years been quietly repatriating Japanese from North Korea who had managed to China. Then the media found out and made it an issue. The public certainly has a right to know AND the gov needs to do what it sees as best. There are no rigt answers of course.

Incidentally, I think that BS and I probably agree on more than we disagree on.

Fight for your country and love your country, sure, just try to understand where the ideas come from and how they are used. Looking deeply and objectively into these matters can be painful and worrying, but it is certainly better than knee-jerk reactions that we intellectual types (that was sarcasm, incidentally, if you were not not paying attention) should best avoid.

Laws are necessary. They are also deeply flawed. Nations have made themselves necessary (for better or for worse) but the whole idea of a nation is deeply flawed.

That does not mean, however, that people should not die to protect what they perceive as freedom, which they may see as embodied in some nation-state. Just be careful what, or who, you choose to die for.

Because Zhang Fei (of legend)* was an irascible SOB with an uncontrollable temper and a yen for getting into fights.

* God only knows what he was really like, of course.

I’ve also heard somewhere that Jenkins has only a few years before the statute of limitations expires on his court martial/desertion case. It could be better for everyone if he just waited until then before he came to Japan.

Deflet has interesting views on legality, patriotism, sense of duty, and the military. While he’s entitled to his/her opinions, I’m pretty glad that he’s not Secretary of Defence - or in any position of responsibility, for that matter. And I will have a hard time taking his suggestions on the topic of foreign policy seriously in the future.

“We”? Speak for yourself. No one I know is bothering them.

Of course Soga looks distressed. She spent 25 years in hell and her two children are still there, and might not get out because she married a dimwit that she and the children feel loyal to. NK abducted her mother at the same time, but claim the mother never entered NK. She’s also had surgery for early lung cancer since she’s been back.

Interesting story in this AM’s paper, BTW. The five kids that returned had a meeting with Koizumi, too. Koizumi drank some “juice” (could be anything non-alcoholic) during the meeting. Apparently, the kids were offered the same drink later at some point (either at the meeting or back in Japan, the newspaper doesn’t say.) Katsuya Hasuike, of university age, asked his father, “Is it OK to have the same drink Prime Minister Koizumi had?”

His father Kaoru replied, “Japan is that kind of country.”

The experience those five have just embarked upon is beyond the imagination of any one of us.

Try me. It would seem that there are no reasons. “He betrayed his country.”?? Give me a break.

Similarly, nothing anyone could ever say could make you understand. To me, “patriot” is a dirty word. One step from nationalism and we all know how much fun that one is.

You seem to be assuming quite a lot incidentally.

She will be doing the convincing will she, the “fat” Soga? Poor Soga has always looked very very distressed. It’s time we just left them all alone. As a family, with Jenkins….But no no no He is deseter! He must pay! But did he harm anyone? No. Only himself. But he is a deserter! He must pay!

If you can even ask this question, nothing anyone could tell you would help you understand.

“Sure, much better to let him remain a playing card for NK.”

He’s not a playing card for NK. KJI told Koizumi he was leaving it up to Jenkins. Let’s assume that’s the case. (Easy to assume; he’s more a burden to them than an asset.) He’s not a playing card in negotations with the US at all, and since he told Koizumi face to face he didn’t want to go, Koizumi is not going to press the issue any more.

As far as convincing people who’ve lived in NK, the other five children seem to have gotten convinced, and for Jenkins’ two daughters it will be their mother who will be doing the convincing.

Convincing people who have been living in NK for all their lives of anything is never going to be easy. Furthermore, we have no idea what the whole story is.

The US knows what a big deal it is to Japan, but the DOD won’t budge. They say they have physical evidence in the form of letters (more than one) he left behind.

It also speaks volumes that Prime Minister Koizumi talked with the guy in Pyongyang Saturday for an hour in a private conference and still couldn’t convince him to come to Japan. Koizumi probably gave him all kinds of assurances of help, but he wouldn’t budge.

Now, I’ve heard from semi-knowledgeable sources that Jenkins is, shall we say, not the brightest bulb around, but I think he is smart enough to remember that he left those letters laying around.

Koizumi finally convinced him to take his kids and meet the wife in Beijing, where the US can’t get him.

Apparently, his children of the three families knew the most about their parents’ situation (both that he is a deserter and that she is a Japanese woman who was abducted), yet they say they were raised as North Koreans and they want to stay. Their mother’s been back in Japan for a year and a half now (and gained a lot of weight), and if she can’t convince them how stupid they are (not only for passing up the chance to live outside of NK, but that their options have become even more limited inside NK), then perhaps they should be allowed the luxury(?) of the last free choice they’ll ever get.

There’s quite a bit of anger in Japan at the results of the talks, BTW. The big sticking point is the information that NK provided on the people it says died, or that they claim they don’t know about. The death certificates they provided are bogus, the information borders on the ridiculous, and the bones of one of the victims, a young man, turned out to be those of some old woman.

Koizumi’s side is saying that KJI told them in the meeting that as far as he was concerned, the abduction issue was resolved (!) Koizumi got him to promise to reopen the investigation, this time with Japanese “assistance”. The Japanese are claiming they pressed the issue rather strongly.

It should not be forgotten that the five children of the other two families were still in NK custody, and KJI still held the key at that point.

There is also puzzlement at the brevity of the meeting–just 90 minutes, or about 45 if you factor in interpretation time. Film of the event suggests to some that KJI was going through the motions, almost like reading a script, unlike at the last meeting. Are his hands tied by unseen (military) knots? There have been reports in Japan that the NK army is restless, and been getting away with impertinences.