As you know, some jerk-off writing a piece for OhMyNews will be heading to the area around Hongik University on Friday night with his camera to take pictures of U.S. soldiers behaving badly. I should point out that the individual in question, who clearly has some “personal” issues, is particularly interested in “inappropriate scenes between foreign men and Korean women,” although I wouldn’t know what exactly constitutes an “inappropriate scene.” Anyway, if you happened to be a member of USFK reading this blog and you know people who are heading up to Hongik tomorrow night, just let them know what’s going down so that they know to be on their best behavior.
Yeah, I know this sucks, and I’m considering a retaliatory project. Nevertheless, I hope this Friday can pass without potentially embarrassing incident.
UPDATE: As the Oranckay points out in my comments, Mr. Bae — the man with issues — won’t be the one in Hongdae. The staff reporter who did the interview with Mr. Bae will be doing the reporting. Regardless, know that there will be a reporter looking for you to screw up in the area, so please, act accordingly. Also, rumor has it that there’s going to be a higher police presence in the area AND a possible crackdown (don’t ask me on what).
31 Comments
RE: “I should point out that the individual in question, who clearly has some “personal” issues, is particularly interested in “inappropriate scenes between foreign men and Korean women,” although I wouldn’t know what exactly constitutes an “inappropriate scene.”"
As the author of the post Marmot has linked let me state I do not know the above to be the case.
It occurs to me that several of the posts I’ve made on the subject have led to people confusing person interviewed and the person doing the interviewing in a recent OhmyNews story. It is the person (a certain Mr. Bae) who was interviewed who briefly mentioned he was planning on making a documentary on “inappropriate scenes” by foreigners (men) and Korean woman in the Hongdae area. He was interviewed by OhmyNews because he happened to witness the Sinchon stabbing incident, took pictures, and gave them to Ohmy.
The full-time OhmyNews reporter who did the interview is the man who, with a few other people (photographer, video cameraman, and maybe myself) will probably be going to the Hongdae area Friday night to look around. His main interest is NOT, I repeat NOT heavy fondling or other cultural “eyesores” between foreign men and Korean women. Rather, as I understand his intentions so far, he wants to look into crimes by USFK personnel in the neighborhood and specifically how club owners and police deal with them. In an hour+ discussion of the “project,” he never once used the terms “inappropriate behavior/scene/displays” as mentioned by the person he interviewed, nor expressed interest in the “subject,” if you can call it that.
that’s funny. we could do a TV show here in america called “koreans behaving badly”. just hang out in the subway in the evenings and you can get some good footage.
Well, considering that Shinchon and Hongdae are off-limits to GI’s, if what oranckay says is true and the team is searching for “GI’s Gone Wild”, then in my opinion any GI’s caught by OhMyNews in the area would get what they deserve if their photos are emailed to the Yongsan base commander. If it happens, someone please make that email happen!
SideNote:
Am I the only non-GI who has ever wished that the US army would be confined to their bases and forced to have fun in the several bars, theatres, etc there? I know they protect us all, and I actually am grateful, but …sigh….sometimes I get a little sick of these guys inflaming the locals with bonehead - no, asshole - no, criminal — stunts like last weekend at Shinchon and Uijongbu, and then me, my friends, and all of us civilians xpats here taking the shit from understandably ticked off Koreans in return. There are precedents to confining GI’s to base. You think the US soldiers in Saudi Arabia stagger around Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, on a Sat. night?
Mark my words. If GI’s are not confined to their bases, eventually there is going to be a horrific incident/PR disaster that will dwarf what we have seen so far. It’s just the law of averages.
Easy for you to say, Mr. Desk Job. Those guys live in mud, heat, rain, and snow, so it’s pretty unfair of you to deny each and every one of them the right to the same “entertainment” you demand as a privilege. I won’t defend the asshole behavior of a minority, but per capita, the U.S. military has a far lower crime rate that a comparable civilian demographic. Every group–to include Canadian and ANZAC English teachers–has assholes. You have a right to expect the military to punish those who misbehave; you don’t have a right to expect everyone who defends your easy, soft life to spend his tour in minimum-security lockup for your convenience. That goes double for the Koreans. If you want the benefits of eating from Uncle Sam’s iron rice bowl, then accept that some of those who set your table are going to screw up sometimes. It’s a package deal.
By the way–of all the Koreans who stabbed, assaulted, kidnapped, or spat on Americans (or people who look “American”), how many of THEM were brought to trial and given appropriate punishement?
As to the “our women” issue–maybe we can start a photo page of us passionately smooching / heavy petting with our Korean wives and girlfriends. When Korean men inevitably take the bait and post racist comments, we could translate those and post them for everyone around the world to see the real (other) face of “Dynamic Korea.”
Acting as if we should be ashamed of our relationships–and I realize nobody here is suggesting that we should–only validates Korea’s racism. Korea needs to have this debate, and it won’t start until the outside world shuns them.
I reproduce here what I wrote to oranckay:
I was unable to register on Ohmynews due to the ??쩌??쩌??쑣?징??짼???쨍 issue. However, I would like to raise the issue that no real investigative reporting was attempted. There are no photos of the actual incident - only the apprehension of a soldier who appears to have been roughly handled. It is seems obvious that he would not have pulled a knife unless he felt threatened by the crowd who surrounded him. One wonders whether the fellow who was stabbed rushed headlong into the path of the knife. There appears to be a double standard with regard to drunkenness in Korea. Drunk Koreans are afforded the utmost respect and patience while USFK personnel are treated as criminals. A real investigative report would air both sides of the issue. No, this is a hatchet job, not an investigative report.
One further point - most USAF personnel act with decorum and respect. To portray the issue as a widepread problem of USFK crimes is simply incorrect and unfair. The problem is one of perception fueled by misunderstanding which results from biased reporting such as this.
If I were to characterize Korea as a nation of drunkards simply because they consume so much more alcohol than Americans and drink to the point of blacking out so frequently, I would be guilty of partial, biased reporting. It would be explained by Koreans as a cultural issue.
Likewise, the so-called USFK crime spree is also a cultural issue. The USFK crime rate is much lower than reported for 2 reasons: First, USFK personnel are targeted for acts ordinary Koreans are not prosecuted for - as evidenced by articles like this. Second, minor traffic infractions are classified as “crimes” leading to inflated statistics. An honest assessment would find the USFK crime rate to be much lower than the general populace in Korea.
USFK personnel are well disciplined and prosecuted severely under SOFA. Incidents like these are handled by the Korean police, despite the article’s hints to the contrary.
Despite the sensitivity of USFK toward its Korean hosts, misunderstandings are perpetrated by such biased reporting. The American is assumed guilty in the media and given no opportunity to prove otherwise.
Hey Joshua
Those guys chose to live in…heat dust sand rain blah blah blah. I chose a non-army career. THE MILITARY IS THEIR CHOICE. I notice you ignored the Saudi comparison, huh? “It’s pretty unfair of” me? Who cares? Who said the Army was fair? This guys knew what they were signing on for. Boo hoo hoo if US high command made it a policy they had to booze it at the many bars on their bases, or in their barracks. It’s not “minimum security lock-up” at all - ANSWER: do US troops have free drunken rein in Saudi? In Afganistan? In Uzbekistan? Calm down and accept that in certain places of the world, US policy/local sensibilities are best furthered by keeping the troops on base…. not interested in debating the abstract morality of that statement, by the way. My opinion was and is, Korea is now one of those places. ‘Realpolitick’ is all I cared about making that post.
Damn right, every sizable group of people has assholes. Some at a higher percentage than others though, huh?
Your following paragraphs - Koreans who assault foreigners, the typical korean male hate-on of foreign guys/Korean women parts 1 & 2 have nothing to do with what I said. Korean racism burns me…..
The tattoo-ed low-IQ mouth-breathers who help inflame Korean racism burn me too…yeah, surprise surprise…..an expat can have both those opinions at the same time. Over tyhe last 8 years, having Korean bigots in hofs screaming threats to you because of the latest spectacular American Army fuck-up just makes me fed up all the more with both parties!
US soldiers should entertain themselves on base. It’s the best thing. Period.
Speaking of biased media, I just watched a “parody” show on KBS that included a little segement called “Kill Bin” (as in Bin Laden) with a photoshopped George Bush in Uma Thurman drag swinging a samurai sword…this followed one of Bush repeatedly punching President Roh in the stomach until he said “Yes, we’ll send troops to Iraq.” It really is time to remove the troops that are being scapegoated.
OK, my big issue with this is that it’s a highly discriminatory piece of reporting. Yes, drunken GIs don’t make for the most pleasant sight, but then again, neither do Korean office workers letting loose on a Friday night on the town after a week of taking shit at their places of employment. For that matter, I’ve seen non-military expats like English teachers making complete asses of themselves in public places following bouts of serious drinking. What’s the point of going to Hongdae and taking pics of young Americans getting shit-faced and acting like, well, young shit-faced Americans when one can go down to Apgujeong-dong, Gangnam or other Korean entertainment districts and see comparable scenes, minus the foreign faces? Or how about some reporters heading to a place like the Blue Monkey in Gwangju — which I never went to, but heard plenty about — where they could probably take tons of photos of foreigners engaged in some pretty disturbing activity, except that the foreigners in question are Yank, Canuck, Brit and Aussie English-teachers? Men+alcohol+young women=bad scene. I mean, if I went around with a video camera around some of the drinking establishments of this country trying to record Korean men getting smashed, puking in the street, screaming and fighting with one another, making “inappropriate scenes” with the young women who might work at such establishments and generally acting like college kids at a frat party, I’d get my ass kicked. And rightfully so, I should add — I wouldn’t want someone sticking a friggin’ camera in my face when I’ve had one too many and I’m not on my best behavior (let alone having said camera man post my naughty behavior on the Internet so my friends and family could see). If you’ve got problems with USFK, fine. But there are ways you try to promote a political goal and ways you don’t. This is one of the ways you don’t.
And look, I don’t want to try to show the rest of the world the “other side of Dynamic Korea.” If I wanted to do something like that, all I needed to do with translate some of the reader comments that were posted over at that OhMyNews interview. But heck, there’s a lot of nasty shit that gets said on U.S. BBSs and Internet forums, and I wouldn’t want some Korean blogger to take some of the more choice examples, translating them into Korean and posting them on his or her blog and saying, “Look at those racist fuckin’ Americans.” There’s no need to post those kinds of incinerary things.
Lastly, we have to be careful of saying things like, “Koreans won’t change unless the world shuns them.” We’re not going to be the vehicles of social change, nor do they really need our help — perhaps it’s not to the extent that we’d prefer, but questions are being asked. Actually, some of the comments left over at OhMyNews went along the lines of “you can’t judge all the GIs by the actions of a few” and “Koreans are even worse in places like the Philippines.” Granted, there weren’t many, but then again, OhMyNews does have its own readership.
Zdunk, if I could just address two points, one would be that, yes, there are tatood, low IQ mouth-breathers who can inflame Korean racism, but again, I’ve seen some rather bizarre individuals of questionable mental faculties teaching English. I don’t think anyone would suggest that those individuals should be confined to their hagwons/schools out of fear of inflaming local sensibilities. Yes, we confine guys to bases in Saudi Arabia, but Korea isn’t Saudi Arabia. I don’t think there’s a need a need to take that kind of drastic step, and besides — and this is simply on an emotional level — I’d feel really bad about placing large segments of the country “off-limits” to people who are, by virtue of a mutual security pact, tasked with helping defend it. Yes, I guess on a theoretical level, one could confine USFK personnel to their bases, but at that point, one would have to wonder why the U.S. should maintain an alliance with a country that hates U.S. soldiers so much that they must be banned from walking the streets in peacetime. The bad press alone would make the alliance politically unfeasable in the United States.
The problem is not so much “bone-headed GIs” as it is the attitudes of certain segments of the population and certain groups that inflame ill-will to further certain political goals. Assuming that those attitudes won’t change anytime soon, the only way to prevent the next “horrific incident” is not to keep soldiers on their bases (the presence of which are a source of friction in and of themselves), but to remove the troops and bases completely. Fortunately, it seems that both sides now realize that a lessening of USFK’s footprint is the way to go, and may be the only way to preserve the alliance.
Well, well argued, but…I’m sorry but I really do feel it is totally true AND totally irrelevant “Teachers can be drunken/idiots/drunken idiots too”. 100% correct. The real point is:
It would be illegal to confine teachers to their hogwons, because that is entirely outside what they have signed on for.
Confining US soldiers to entertainment on base is a legit option, because that is entirely covered by what they have signed on for. Looking around at the level of emotional fanaticism in the last 5 years, can you really say “Korea is not Saudi Arabia” Isn’t it evolving close to a level of hatred?
US troops were banned from walking the streets of Saudi Arabia during peacetime (1992-2002). This was a benefit to American foreign policy. It prevented them from being public savages and being kicked out of Saudi Arabia. National interest first. Grunt’s recreation second.
Marmot, I acknowledge that you feel SK will survive and prosper in the long term. I personally disageee, and believe US withdrawal will be rivers of blood and conquest/enslavement. However, sometimes in the Korean blog community I realize that many actually DESIRE these rivers of blood and enslavement. It is a kind of resentment so deep, it desires the slaughter of millions by Pig Jong-Il to satisfy it. The xpat revenge fantasy - “Pig Jong-Il will punish that guy who stared at me yesterday” A satisfying reflex opinion, but with serious thought is that what you really wish on these 45 million human beings? If so, I am not interested in yr reply.
Anyhow, Joe average US public could not give a damn if US soldiers have to booze it confined to Yongsan. How many flags have been burned with only the faintest of short-term recognition by the American public? American national interests come first, the recreation of it’s soldiers come about 12th. The American public will focus on the latest OJ trial, etc…. If the house armed services committee shrugs at it (and they would) so will every one else. Welcome to the really real world.
Do you disagree with US troops confined to base because it is inconvenient for them, or because you secretly hope things will get worse and they will withdraw?
I want US troops confined to base (many bars etc) because I want them to stay because I want to stay. There.
In point of fact, I don’t think anybody seriously hopes that “Pig Jong-il” is going to punish the locals for giving expats evil stares. Least of all me, because I’m here for the long term (much to the chagrin of my wife). And, sorry, I have to disagree with the whole rivers of blood thing — at one time, that would have been true, but not anymore. Yes, South Korea has social issues it needs to work out, and yes, there are security concerns, but nothing the country couldn’t handle (and handle better, it could be argued) should 36,000 U.S. troops exit stage right. Let’s look at this rationally — the ROK has 600,000 men under arms, and while this doesn’t quite match the million + of the DPRK’s Inmin-gun, it does enjoy substantial advantages in terms of weapons, training and logistics. Moreover, assuming for a moment the South Korean president doesn’t wake up one morning as decide he wants to unify the peninsula today, any war fought with the North would be a defensive one in territory well-suited for defensive operations. Moreover, the South has twice the population of the North — and almost all the males of military-age have received military training. As it stands now, the South could defend itself. Pull out USFK, and South Korea would simply bolster those areas in which it was dependent on the U.S., something it could easily do given the size of its economy. Moreover, pulling out USFK does NOT mean an end to the alliance. Nor does it necessarily mean tearing up the US-ROK mutual defense pact. The two would continue to share intelligence, conduct joint maneuvers, train together and provide access to facilities in times of emergency. Substantial U.S. naval and air assets in the region would still be on hand to lend support should the shit hit the fan. And right now, I look at USFK, and all I see is a waste of valuable U.S. military resources sitting where they are not needed and serve no appreciable U.S. interests, while encouraging in their hosts resentment, feelings of dependency and an arguably naive view of the way the world works. Pull those troops out, and everyone wins.
BTW, as far as Americans not caring about the flag-burning, I can assure you that 2002’s demonstrations had a tremendous influence on both media opinion and policy making. I’m not going to exagerate its role, of course — most of the recent changes can be traced back to changes in U.S. strategic planning. But the manner in which some of these decisions have been handed down — not to mention the rather negative vibe surrounding any number of pending bilateral issues — can be attributed at least in part to 2002. Of course, nobody’s saying that, but one can make only so many official denials before one gets suspicious. And again, I still can’t draw a comparison between Korea and Saudi Arabia. Aside from the fact that I don’t believe the hate has gotten anywhere near the point in which we have to confine U.S. soldiers to their bases, we don’t enjoy with Saudi Arabia a 50-year long mutual security pact cemented by the blood of tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers. If the French had demanded (either through official channels or by beating up U.S. servicemen on the streets) that we kept U.S. troops in their bases after the war (and before they kicked us out on their own accord), we would have told them to fuck off and moved our boys somewhere else. If anti-Americanism ever reached that level in South Korea, I can’t see how that wouldn’t make the U.S. troop presence untenable. But like I said, I don’t think it’s anywhere near that level, so perhaps its simply an academic discussion for now.
Zdunk,
Your arguments are the same kind of thing used in the South during the Civil Rights Movement.
You even noted in one of your long posts that confining the soldiers to base is to play to the racism of the Korean people, but you say it is fine to do so to the soldiers, because they are in the military and confining them to barracks is “legal” or happens, so they can live with it.
And you further justify this in your mind because you lable them a bunch of ignorant losers to begin with…..low IQ or whatever….
Funny how that prejudice things works, no?
I know you dismissed this argument conviently, but I’ve worked with and seen a good number of drunken even drugged out expat teachers from the US and Canada and elsewhere making a bad name for the waikuks in the eyes of the Koreans who saw them those nights.
They just don’t get reported.
Take the example of the Irish incident. This isn’t a great example for what I just mentioned, because from the reports we got on it, they were not doing anything outrageous….just singing in a bar when the owner wanted to close early.
But……we did have a big incident — some 2 dozen or more Irish expats beaten and shot with air guns in the streets by security thugs. Some requiring hospital treatment.
Big event, I’d say, compared to some with GIs involved that inflame the racism of the Koreans.
But not one article about the Irish affair ran in any of the main news media…..funny how THAT works, no?
So I wonder how many non-GI expats are getting invovled in “scuffles” with the good citizen Koreans but not getting made into national news?
But, I forgot. It isn’t the number of bad apples that bothers you.
It is simply the fact that Korean racism and particularly their prejudice against GIs causes you discomfort when an event increases the demostrations of this racism.
And since pretty much share the same bias toward the low IQ ridden bums, you can understand why USFK should bow to Korean racism….
Marmot,
Info passed to USFK. Thanks.
English teachers should entertain themselves in the hagwon. It’s the best thing. Period.
Zdunk says:
“US troops were banned from walking the streets of Saudi Arabia during peacetime (1992-2002).”
I was stationed in the Army in Saudi Arabia in 1994-95. I promise you I walked the streets of the kingdom at will. I have no idea what you’re talking about and suspect the same holds true for you.
higher police presence in the area AND a possible crackdown (don’t ask me on what).
Okay, club owners, expect a heavier shakedown of your wallet this weekend. You KNOW you should close at midnight and not serve booze to under-age youth, right?
I expect the enveloppes will be thicker tonight…
Let me put a confirming round on what Copperhead just said. Zdunk, in trying to defend your point you’re making yourself ludicrous.
I also was stationed in Saudi Arabia during that period, and I “walked” the streets of Saudi Arabia just fine along with everyone else.
What I couldn’t do was have a drink — and neither could any Saudi.
I couldn’t walk up to Saudi females and introduce myself — but neither could any Saudi male (not related to them). Had I done so, we were warned it was theoretically possible that an accompanying male relative could pull out one of those wicked-looking curved knives they carry as part of standard attire and plunge it into us. Afterwards, he could have made a credible case in an Islamic court, claiming he was defending her.
“Underground” parties where drinking hooch and dancing with the opposite sex took place, of course, and on a few occasions it was hinted to me by a native harum-scarum young male interpreter that it might be fun for me to go look one up. I declined, as it wasn’t hard for me to imagine what my chain of command would say and do if I was present at one of these when they were raided by the Saudi cops (as frequently happened).
Perhaps this was too bad; it was my one chance in this lifetime to recreate for myself one of any number of famous Hollywood movie scenes from the Prohibition era (ie, the hero goes out the fire escape while the flappers and their escorts, in tails and white tie, get rounded up and put in the paddy-wagon). But — I’m too old for that stuff now anyway.
You’ve got a confused idea of the theater-wide order (I think it was Gen Order #1) issued by Schwarkopff, applying to the hundreds of thousands of US troops in cantonments in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf war. Basically said no liquor, no passes, but these restrictions were normal for that society (unlike Korea).
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If Korean nationalist and/or left-wing hooligans are actively looking to harass and attack GI’s out on the town, who are only doing the same things that Koreans do — and the Korean cops and courts are going to overlook this harassment — then it’s time to bring the GI’s home to the good old USA, not lock them up in the ping-pong room.
Yikes!
Well, I was obviously wrong on the Saudi base confinement thing.
Whether or not SK could take on NK alone is a whole other topic.
I can see the late hour made my language a bit colorful - sorry to any military who were offended. A thin excuse - there are a lot of xpat business people, teachers, civilians who are a lot more embedded in Korean society than GI’s, and who are exposed to a lot more flak when GI’s do something criminal or provocative, so I was venting something a lot of us feel. I notice in the indignation there were no apologies made to that point, BTW
End of thread for me!
Zdunk,
I can understand the frustration at the heat, don’t get me wrong.
When I was still in Korea, news of a USFK member murder or other serious crime pissed me off greatly, because I knew how much damage the one individual had done to all of USFK and the US — including myself.
But that is a far cry from siding with the Korean trend to demonize the GIs and make them less than human which telling them to be prepared to fight and die for Korea, but just don’t walk around in Korea does.
As soon as the guys in my office saw that pic and story of the knife stabbing, we thought “Here comes the pain!”
i see zdunks point - the soldiers write the check, then the Koreans cash it on teachers asses….we don’t have a base we can hide on
“That is, if they’re not hiding on US bases.”
Just as a public service, I thought I should say a U.S. base would be a decidedly bad place to hide in the event of a war. I live right across the street from Yongsan Garrison, and I often find it ammusing to sit and contemplate at night just how many North Korean chemical and biological artillery shells are aimed at the place. Even with conventional shells, I can’t imagine that getting a first-hand look at the effects of concentrated fire would be much fun, especially for us civilians.
About Saudi. When I was doing my military duty (AFB 123, Orl??ans-Bricy, the main check-in point for the Foreign Legion and Marine crackheads to and from Sarajevo), one of the air controllers shared with me his experience of Gulf War I. Apparently, a C-130 regularly delivered pallets and pallets of shampoo. Yep, for them brave air controllers who decidedly had better hygiene habbits than back home.
Thing is, them shampoo bottles contained Pernod, not Head & Shoulders… And apparently, getting ice was their biggest problem…
Marmot/Robert, why do you think maintaining the alliance (after the USFK has been withdrawn, as you’ve suggested) is in the interest of the US?
We poor, poor GI’s and GI groupies…criticized by Canuckleheads, Kiwi’s, etc. How dare these rebellious allies have a different opinion than us, and dare to speak it on public boards? In fact, how dare they criticize us? Outrageous.
Let us fervently hope once more, as we have in the above posts, that one day war will come and they will be all slaughtered at the gates of the US embassy or wherever for their crime of not being loyal auxiliaries and cheerleaders. Because death is what they deserve. Uppity allies! They should know their place - following behind us!
(I couldn’t resist. Ok, I’m really off this thread now…. )
zdunk –
“they should know their place?”
you’re the one advocating that military personnel be treated as second class citizens (by maintaining that their movements be restricted in manners not applied to others).
it’s quite humorous - you criticize the opinions of others posters and all is square. others criticize you and it’s triumph of the will. priceless.
pot, meet kettle.
uhh… I have lots of grammatical errors in the previous post. I should’ve previewed it. I apologize for butchering your language.
“Let us fervently hope once more, as we have in the above posts, that one day war will come and they will be all slaughtered at the gates of the US embassy or wherever for their crime of not being loyal auxiliaries and cheerleaders.”
Like U.S. bases, in the event of an emergency on the Korean Peninsula, I’d stay well clear of the gates of the U.S. Embassy. In fact, assuming you couldn’t get out of the country, Mungyeong, North Gyeongsang Province might be a good spot to hang. I lived there for my first three years here in Korea — kinda think of it as my ??흹2?쨀???? — and not only is it a really pleasant place, but the nearest priority target is the ROK Air Force base at Yecheon, which is far enough away that even Nodong accuracy issues aren’t much of a concern. Then again, Mungyeong does sit across one of the few passes through the Sobaek Mountains, so perhaps it might not be such a great place to be afterall.
jamie — Feel free to butcher my language. I do a pretty good job of butchering it myself.
To the extent which your observation is true, Jamie, the bad behavior of some GI’s was in my opinion one consequence of the traditional Korean peninsula assignment policy of the US military, which sent individuals over on one-year unaccompanied tours. With individual troops rotating constantly, it’s harder to maintain unit cohesion and discipline (Vietnam was the classical example).
There is no intrinsic instinct of
“justif[ication] to mishandle…hapless brown people…” in American soldiers. There is the rutting instinct of over-hormoned young males, fueled by alcohol and excited by tales of liberal prostitution. Call it the “traveling salesman syndrome” if you will, but chalk it up to all males everywhere.
Prostitution is evidently still prevalent in Korea (from what I read on this blog and others). Unfortunately it also seems to be on the increase elsewhere in the world, as traditional standards of moral behavior continue to erode under relentless assault.
The solution is to bring the troops home and for Koreans to confront their own dilemma of a divided peninsula. If the South wants to continue with the US alliance, and include a periodic show of strength from US ground forces (though as Marmot says, they’re not needed now), then selected US units can be brought in at intervals for a short joint training deployment (as in the traditional annual exercise ongoing for years now — what’s it’s name?)
The troops come in as a unit and leave as a unit, rather than as individuals. Not a complete panacea for bad behavior but it will help, and that’s how the US Army will be doing business from now on anyway IMO (analogous to what they did during WWII).
On one hand, I know all about a “few bad apples” and that generalizing about soldiers is wrong. On the other hand, I compare Hongdae before American soldiers discovered the place to after they discovered the place….
One problem is that American soldiers don’t seem to take a lot of their orders very seriously, at least not the orders about where they can go and when. Hongdae and Shinchon at night are off limits and there is a curfew, so any US soldier there in the evening is disobeying orders (and is therefore one of the bad apples, a guess). It would be nice if the off-limits areas rules were better enforced… but having MPs wandering around Hongdae would probably be worse than having soldiers breaking curfew.
Then again, one of my better friends for the past couple of years was an American soldier who was always in off-limits areas and always out after curfew… and he was a hell of a nice guy who fit none of the stereotypes about “low-IQ mouth breathers”.
Anyhow, I do get the feeling that the USFK does a pretty poor job of acclimating soldiers to life in Korea. Maybe they hear whore stories from the 70s, or they think this is some Third World outpost, or perhaps they get posted to one of the more out-of-the-way bases that have little nearby but sleazy bars…
One final (disjointed) thought…. I think the Koreans are also to blame here. Seoul is a city of 11 million (over 20 if you include the suburbs), and Korea a nation of 48 million… but there are precious few cool or “happening” places. Almost no decent live music. A near-dead repertory film scene. How do you have a university district without a decent book store or CD shop? Not much going on outside of Itaewon and Hongdae. A few thousand soldiers should be able to go out and have a few beers, do a little boogeying, without making their presence much felt. But the locals have a rather undeveloped arts and youth scene (unless you think Hyewha and Jongno are fun), so proportionally, soldiers (and foreigners in general) stick out far more than they should.
Some questions to think about –
How different do the soldiers seem out on the town in these areas than 18 to 23 year olds in college towns in the US (or Canada or the UK or France)? What kind of differences are there?
I saw a good number of fights and arguments in college towns in my time in the US. I saw no fights with the expat teachers I went around with in Korea…
but I saw a good bit of arguing among Korean middle aged drunks when I lived above a bar district.
The red light districts in Korea (like near train stations) was something I hadn’t witnessed before in the US. Nor was I prepared for the sheer number and variety of places for prostition in Korea.
I also remember this last time I was in Korea. I was studying Korean in Seoul and taking the train in leaving at 5:00 in the morning.
Just about every day, when I was catching the taxi to go to the station, the 20 and 30 something Koreans filled the streets heading home after a night out drinking. Almost every night. And I saw a few interesting sitautions — shouting matches. men harassing (mildly) women trying to get taxis home. and such.
My times going out with Korean college kids to Korean hangouts was much like when I went out in the US.
I never went into red light districts with Koreans or expats in Korea (or in the US) so I can’t speak for any differences between how the soldiers, expats, or Koreans act there.
Right now, I don’t have the experience to say the GIs are out of their class in Korea in how they act.
Even consider the current story that started all of this.
We have apparently one Korean deciding to confront the soldiers for whatever reason and the event really beginning there.
This is similar in many cases in this common story in Korea.
It all ends up a big question (?) to me….
What’s in it for the USFK? We made a promise to our friends in Japan we would protect them from the Chinese in return for their agreement not to have an offensive military. Marmot, I agree with you. Pull the whole works. Leave some staging and a small ceremonial presence but ship the boys to Guam. Let’s see what happens with the DFI once security on the ROK is compromised. I guess I am tired of the anti bullshit. I know some folks welcome the US presence but I think its time to go.