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	<title>Comments on: More Civil Network for a Peaceful Korea bullshit</title>
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	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/04/02/more-civil-network-for-a-peaceful-korea-bullshit/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Tue,  7 Oct 2008 22:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Antti</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/04/02/more-civil-network-for-a-peaceful-korea-bullshit/#comment-2936</link>
		<dc:creator>Antti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Apr 2004 04:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=674#comment-2936</guid>
		<description>Usinkorea, the North didn't suck only China and USSR, but several European nations as well.

Last autumn a couple of DPRK diplomats visited Helsinki as guests of a research institute, and I also got invited to a lunch with them. So one of them said, as if to point out the good relations between the countries, that the paper mill that was delivered to them sometime in the 70s is working well. Perhaps it is, or perhaps it isn't. But I didn't have the heart or guts to ask them why don't they pay for it then if it works.
Yes, talk about more credit to DPRK.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Usinkorea, the North didn&#8217;t suck only China and USSR, but several European nations as well.</p>
<p>Last autumn a couple of DPRK diplomats visited Helsinki as guests of a research institute, and I also got invited to a lunch with them. So one of them said, as if to point out the good relations between the countries, that the paper mill that was delivered to them sometime in the 70s is working well. Perhaps it is, or perhaps it isn&#8217;t. But I didn&#8217;t have the heart or guts to ask them why don&#8217;t they pay for it then if it works.<br />
Yes, talk about more credit to DPRK.</p>
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		<title>By: usinkorea</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/04/02/more-civil-network-for-a-peaceful-korea-bullshit/#comment-2935</link>
		<dc:creator>usinkorea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Apr 2004 03:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=674#comment-2935</guid>
		<description>Marmot,

I like the following "Bingo" statement:

"I also need not point out that this focus on "external factors" comes from people who condemned the way in which South Korean military dictators used the very real North Korean threat to justify the curtailing of freedom south of the DMZ for much of the 60s, 70s and 80s.

You know, they'd sound a lot more convincing if they'd just come out and say something like, hey, even if the UN and the U.S. Congress take measures, it probably won't help the human rights situation any, and we don't want to risk pissing North Korea off, so let's hold off on the resolutions and/or acts."

Ain't it funny how stuff like that never happens?  Even in the US too...

Also, I don't think the world talks much any more about how one of the key elements of the North's current shithole situation has been the loss of the blank check it was getting from the Soviet Union and China until the early 1990s.

This is important to recognize now, because it seems the apologists for NK (both in the US and SK who either want to prentend NK isn't so bad or who want to undermine a "hard-line" US policy as part of a tendancy to want to undermine US (republican) foreign policy in general) are better able to make it seem that NK simply had a string of bad luck in the 1990s that led them to the situation ---- that the floods coupled with the antagonistic relationship with the US brought them to their present condition.

On the other side, you have more of a contemporary look at what NK is actually doing which faces off with the opposition's short sighted view of why things got that way.

The anti-NK side should do more to point out how NK's claims of self-reliance have always been one big huge fraud ---- that they had been sucking the tit of Russia and China dry, and when the flow was severely cut down, they started to starve.

I think that helps us get to the heart of the pitiful nature of the North Korean state as a whole......which we should recognize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marmot,</p>
<p>I like the following &#8220;Bingo&#8221; statement:</p>
<p>&#8220;I also need not point out that this focus on &#8220;external factors&#8221; comes from people who condemned the way in which South Korean military dictators used the very real North Korean threat to justify the curtailing of freedom south of the DMZ for much of the 60s, 70s and 80s.</p>
<p>You know, they&#8217;d sound a lot more convincing if they&#8217;d just come out and say something like, hey, even if the UN and the U.S. Congress take measures, it probably won&#8217;t help the human rights situation any, and we don&#8217;t want to risk pissing North Korea off, so let&#8217;s hold off on the resolutions and/or acts.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ain&#8217;t it funny how stuff like that never happens?  Even in the US too&#8230;</p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t think the world talks much any more about how one of the key elements of the North&#8217;s current shithole situation has been the loss of the blank check it was getting from the Soviet Union and China until the early 1990s.</p>
<p>This is important to recognize now, because it seems the apologists for NK (both in the US and SK who either want to prentend NK isn&#8217;t so bad or who want to undermine a &#8220;hard-line&#8221; US policy as part of a tendancy to want to undermine US (republican) foreign policy in general) are better able to make it seem that NK simply had a string of bad luck in the 1990s that led them to the situation &#8212;- that the floods coupled with the antagonistic relationship with the US brought them to their present condition.</p>
<p>On the other side, you have more of a contemporary look at what NK is actually doing which faces off with the opposition&#8217;s short sighted view of why things got that way.</p>
<p>The anti-NK side should do more to point out how NK&#8217;s claims of self-reliance have always been one big huge fraud &#8212;- that they had been sucking the tit of Russia and China dry, and when the flow was severely cut down, they started to starve.</p>
<p>I think that helps us get to the heart of the pitiful nature of the North Korean state as a whole&#8230;&#8230;which we should recognize.</p>
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		<title>By: Infidel</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/04/02/more-civil-network-for-a-peaceful-korea-bullshit/#comment-2934</link>
		<dc:creator>Infidel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=674#comment-2934</guid>
		<description>This Cheong Won-sik essay is a classic example of the clash between eastern and western ways. Westerners evaluate by reference to standards; easterners divide between us and them. It doesn't matter if we agree that A is bad and B is good, because your opinion is doing us harm. If we start acting as if we accept your evaluation, then we'll no longer be us, but them. 

I wish they would understand that we don't care if they have a different way of living, as long as they don't try to starve people, invade others, sell missiles and drugs, or encourage illegal activities worldwide. If they would submit to democratic  scrutiny by their own people, we would be even more reassured.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This Cheong Won-sik essay is a classic example of the clash between eastern and western ways. Westerners evaluate by reference to standards; easterners divide between us and them. It doesn&#8217;t matter if we agree that A is bad and B is good, because your opinion is doing us harm. If we start acting as if we accept your evaluation, then we&#8217;ll no longer be us, but them. </p>
<p>I wish they would understand that we don&#8217;t care if they have a different way of living, as long as they don&#8217;t try to starve people, invade others, sell missiles and drugs, or encourage illegal activities worldwide. If they would submit to democratic  scrutiny by their own people, we would be even more reassured.</p>
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		<title>By: slim</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/04/02/more-civil-network-for-a-peaceful-korea-bullshit/#comment-2933</link>
		<dc:creator>slim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=674#comment-2933</guid>
		<description>Since we're already in fantasyland merely by engaging with Korean "progressives", I'm willing to concede a point to Cheong on Japan and North Korea's human rights situation:

(Imperial) Japan must be faulted for not killing Kim Il-sung before he was able to start a family, let alone a country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since we&#8217;re already in fantasyland merely by engaging with Korean &#8220;progressives&#8221;, I&#8217;m willing to concede a point to Cheong on Japan and North Korea&#8217;s human rights situation:</p>
<p>(Imperial) Japan must be faulted for not killing Kim Il-sung before he was able to start a family, let alone a country.</p>
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		<title>By: jtb</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/04/02/more-civil-network-for-a-peaceful-korea-bullshit/#comment-2932</link>
		<dc:creator>jtb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=674#comment-2932</guid>
		<description>Just in case I wasn't clear enough, I meant Louisiana, not Los Angeles...  Los Angeles is too dangerous and Lousisiana has better Korean restaurants...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just in case I wasn&#8217;t clear enough, I meant Louisiana, not Los Angeles&#8230;  Los Angeles is too dangerous and Lousisiana has better Korean restaurants&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: jtb</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/04/02/more-civil-network-for-a-peaceful-korea-bullshit/#comment-2931</link>
		<dc:creator>jtb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:14:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=674#comment-2931</guid>
		<description>All this talk of the poor Norkers leads me to offer to buy Kim Jong Il a steak dinner at the Mansion in Dallas (as long as he can keep it under $1000.00) if only he'll agree to Uni on my terms...

1.  The Nork Army to be reduced to the size necessary for a National Police Force.

2.  All Communist literature to be "retired" (ok, incinerated).

3.  All current leaders in the DPRK to be exiled to LA and break off all ties with TBD future leaders.

4.  No Kimchi to be served at dinner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All this talk of the poor Norkers leads me to offer to buy Kim Jong Il a steak dinner at the Mansion in Dallas (as long as he can keep it under $1000.00) if only he&#8217;ll agree to Uni on my terms&#8230;</p>
<p>1.  The Nork Army to be reduced to the size necessary for a National Police Force.</p>
<p>2.  All Communist literature to be &#8220;retired&#8221; (ok, incinerated).</p>
<p>3.  All current leaders in the DPRK to be exiled to LA and break off all ties with TBD future leaders.</p>
<p>4.  No Kimchi to be served at dinner.</p>
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