OK, I guess I have to. This, from today’s Chosun Ilbo editorial section:
Do we really have to bring up the massacre of Koreans after the Great Kanto Earthquake of September 1, 1923, the women who were forcibly taken away during the Pacific War, and the tragedy of the young Korean men who were conscripted into the Japanese military only to be executed as Class B and Class C war criminals? The Korean people are not the only ones who live with this pain in their hearts. The same goes for China, the Philippines, Singapore, and Indonesia.
One can only wonder if whoever wrote this understood the irony of admonishing the Japanese to take responsibility for their past while passing off the 150 Koreans who were executed after the war, mostly for crap like this, as a “tragedy.” Strange that it came out today, because when I was doing some background work for the previous piece, I came across this:
WARSAW - On the 60th anniversary of a the Jedwabne massacre, Polish President Aleksander Kwaoniewski officially apologized for the part allegedly played by Poles in the 1941 pogrom in which an undetermined number of Jews were stabbed, bludgeoned and burned alive in a barn. In his address to several thousand umbrella-shielded mourners in the small northeastern town, the ex-communist president said: ‘We know with all certainty that among the persecutors and butchers there were Poles. Here in Jedwabne, citizens of the Polish Republic died at the hands of other citizens. (…) Because of that crime we should beg the forgiveness of the shades of the victims and their families. I therefore apologize here today, as a citizen and as the president of the Polish Republic. I apologize on my own behalf and on behalf of those Poles whose consciences have been stirred by that crime, who believe that one cannot be proud of Polish history’s greatness without simultaneously feeling pain and shame at the evil committed by Poles against others.’
A lot of people compare Korea and Poland, as both countries have managed to preserve their identities and, in the end, survive despite experiencing the tragedy of having their national sovereignties ripped away from them by their larger, more powerful neighbors. With that shared experience in mind, perhaps the Koreans could learn something from the Polish example here, just as the Japanese obviously have much to learn from the German one.
42 Comments
While that’s not what the Marmot is doing here, it never ceases to amaze me how some Westerners in Korea only mention Japanese war atrocities when talking about how there were Koreans involved. Some of ‘em are almost as predictable as the Koreans who don’t know, or don’t want to know, about it.
I also rolled my eyes when coming to that sentence. I don’t know how you wouldn’t catch the implication when writing it. It made me think of the book The Bridge Over the River Quai (sp?).
I find the Korean news lately depressing. It’s depressing (rather than irritating) because I’m watching events I really have no stake in — that none the less seem terribly wrong.
Noh and the Chosun and I guess much of Korean society deciding to keep the head-knocking over the sins of Japan going is just a small part. If Korea wants to become the economic hub of East Asia and prosper as a region, these different nations are going to have to work together. That will take some give-n-take on all sides, but it doesn’t seem like they are going to get around to it.
But Korea seems to be going out of its way to cut its legs out from under itself.
Do they really need to set up a commission (a political commission) to dig into “pro-Japanese and anti-Nationalism”? It was probably a counter-productive move that was mostly skipped back in the late 1940s and 1950s. It is surely not the brightest thing to do if you want to work on Korea’s future.
Noh’s presidency was important because it was a chance to set the direction of the post-3 Kims and 3 generals era. But for all Noh’s group’s talk of breaking from the (authoritarian) past, this new commission, the picking fights with Japan (another soveriegn nation) over issues that are not key to Korea’s future at all, and deciding to push the US away for some sense of its own soverignty are not moves to create a better Korea.
I was going to blog on this today too, but the site is down….
Not that I blame the fellow; but after reading his “memoirs” it sounds like the former POW seemed to despise/hate/loath the Japanese, British, and Dutch every bit as much as the Koreans…
Wonder how he felt about the Aussies and their 19th Century treatment of their Indigenous Peoples? Wonder if his attitude changed over the time he was imprisoned?
ya want korean war crimes? search around on the net for what they did in vietnam. i had a platoon sergeant, he was a tunnel rat in vietnam, when i was a young private that told me that when the koreans went into a suspected VC villiage, they were the only ones that came out alive.
“ya want korean war crimes?”-Captain Scarlet
ya want american war crimes?
ya want south vietnamese war crimes?
ya want north vietnamese war crimes?
ya want australian war crimes?
ya want filipino war crimes?
man, the vietnam war (laos and cambodia as well)was one of the dirtiest, bloodiest fought conflict in the cold-war-era and troops from all sides have committed atrocities. but you?쨈re partially right, the korean divisions were among the most ruthless and the korean society in general used to ignore the korean participation in these massacres. you should ask your tunnel rat, what american gi?쨈s and marines did explicitly in vietnam: i?쨈m sure, you would thereafter not only crying wolfe at the korean vets, if you are generally embarrased about WAR CRIMES (without any national connotation).
btw, i?쨈m still waiting for your email with the trustable sources/ links/ articles/ whatsoever, that the nogun-ri massacre was a “debunked figment” by the bbc, as you has
stated elsewhere. i guess, the mail will never arrive…?
RE usinkorea’s “probably a counter-productive move that was mostly skipped back in the late 1940s and 1950s.”
Thwarted from the highest levels, not skipped.
You never know why some observers think this is just coming out of the blue. When the commission formed in 1948 to deal with the issue started probing in some uncomfortable places, it was suddenly and forcibly watered down by Syngman Rhee, who wanted to reach out (to say the very least) to collaborative elements. It had a special unit with police powers, which was disbanded. Rhee’s was a police state, then you had decades of dictatorship, and that about gets you to the early nineties (unless you buy that Roh Tae-woo’s govt was democratically elected), and people have been pushing ever since to get something distantly similar passed, problem being that until now, and for the most part even now, the political interests that have the most to lose from the truth have dominated the political landscape. Longtime GNP chairman and two time presidential candidate Lee Hoi-chang was a prosecutor (more that just “going along”) with the Japanese. Most predicted that yesterday’s legislation wouldn’t pass since the GNP was earlier keeping it from even making the Assembly floor. (There were also some who opposed the bill because it was too weak!)
Hate to quote the Hankyoreh but I just found this:
“When forces under the control of Syngman Rhee took power immediately after Liberation, the task was rendered impossible because Rhee joined hands with stooges of Japanese imperialism and placed them in high posts. The forced disbanding of the Special Committee to Investigate Anti-Korean Activities [Banmin Teugwi] and the special police unit under its control will forever remain a source of sorrow for the Korean nation.”
Sorry that Hankyoreh link is here.
Marmot–I always like your cross-comparisons of different societies, probably because as an American I tend to think of nationality as a construct, and “race” as a loaded expression of identity politics (per the “minjok” discussion the other day). So I’m curious about what you think of the recent uptick in Japan-related issues (Dokdo/Takeshima, the “encyclopedia” of colonial-era collaborators, the “hot wind of patriotism” blowing out of Roh’s ass, etc.). I’ve only been here for three years, so I’m wondering if this is a recent phenomena, an ongoing one, an endless one?
Michael,
I think I can answer part of your question. The island thing and most of what you hear is old news — but always kept fresh year to year.
I’m sure you’ve noticed, Korea is big on memorial days, both official and unofficial (Like March 1st or like the anniversary for the death of the 2 middle school girls). So, there are always opportunities to hit this or that note that come up several times a year.
What makes them both old and new is the mood of the Korean people at the time.
For example, the 2000 Water Dumping case. No matter what one thinks of USFK, everybody has to admit the amount of pollutants dumped was very minor —- on anybody’s scale - but Korean society from top to bottom went nuts. Went nuts depsite the fact that I had seen a couple of murders of Korean women by a GI between about 1997 to 2000 hardly raise heckles for more than a few weeks when the crimes occured and then again when the soldiers were found guilty and sentenced to prison.
So, why did the murders get a ho-hum or typical response of outrage when a minor environmental infraction sent Korea into rapture for months and even years — they are still trying to put the USFK civilian who ordered the dumping in jail ??? Because in 2000, the NK-SK Summit sent South Korea into unlooked for euphoria. (add to that the fact that the SOFA was under renegociation too).
In short, the Summit made Korea feel powerful and ready for a fight, so it took the old issue of “USFK crimes against Korea” and mixed it with the new one (a minor, minor crime) and their current mood, and they had a very long ranting session against USFK.
The issues Korea has with Japan are old but are picked over each year and how much attention they grab to me seems to depend on the mood of the day. Korea right is unsure of the future. Noh has tripped over himself. But the opposition party is also disfunctional. So maybe the higher heat on March 1st is a way to vent….???….
I do think, however, there is a more historical, non-recurring element now to the Japanese collaborator issue. I’ll try to find some links, but the issue has been an open sore in South Korea for a long time, but the passing of the Kim Dae Jung administration has opened up a new opportunity for it that won’t come again.
My guess is that now that Korea has elected a president who wasn’t one of the “3 Kims” who were opposition figures throughout much of the authoritarian period (1950 early 1990s)—- and so Korea elected its first president who wasn’t totally hitched to that past the Korean government decided to “fianlly put to bed” the pro-Japanese/anti-Korean issue.
Of course this is going to fail miserably.
South Korean society decided after WWII that it wasn’t in its best interest to throw people like future President Park Chung Hee into prison or kill them for having served actively in the Japanese military, and they decided not to take away the wealth (and lives) of people like Carter Eckert wrote about who tried to build up industry (in Korea) even under Japanese rule…….and I see no reason to believe South Korean society of today has the stomach to decide to define these people as “anti-Korean” either…..
I really don’t know why the government is deciding to reopen these old wounds at this moment beyond some belief that since the “old era of authoritarian politics has passed” they can somehow “resolve” this “long outstanding” issue.
I don’t think it is going to score any political points for anybody, because I don’t believe anybody except the hard-core “progressives” outside the government are willing to tear South Korea’s past down —- and the people who are largely given credit for building South Korea up —- in search of blame for who was “pro-Japanese,” but I do think there are some of these minority viewpoint groups who will seize the opportunity of greater publication in the moment to claim the Kim Il Sung definition of who were the traitors was the right one —- which will smear many of the people who did build the South up.
(The Carter Eckart book is : Offspring of Empire - The Koch’ang Kims and the Colonial Orignis of the Korean Capitalism 1876-1945. I don’t think Eckart’s book seeks to “lay blame” at all or claim who was pro-Japanese and who wasn’t. It is, however, a book that places the black-n-white nature of the colonial period that most Korean adults I have taught want to believe happened into a grey area. Colonialism was a terrible system, but it wasn’t as clear cut as we like to believe.
Yeah, the “collaborator encyclopedia” thing puzzles me because, really, what is the intention behind it–to humiliate the descendents? What will that achieve? Still, I’d chalk it up to growing pains for the country, like the US’s civil rights era.
There is NO WAY, it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for Koreans to in ANY WAY compare the misery in Korea under the Japanese to the barbarity unleashed by Hitler and his more than willing henchmen in Poland Do a little reading on what the Nazis did in Poland and you would not sleep well for a very, very long time. I suggest getting into the German archives of the 1939-1944 period that describe the offical policy towards the Poles. The truth is more atrocious than fiction can ever be and makes the Japanese look like pretenders.
I have notice over a number of years that for almost any situation where a Korean is grieved, or in some dispute, the story always starts from the point of where something happened to them, [the korean(s)], always ignoring what their action was before hand. It is all most like they can do what ever they want and nothing is supposed to stick them, but others always the responsible for the situation. They don’t see themselves as a part of the situation in which there is a cause and effect. This is my two cents……..
SS,
i never said i was going to email you with anything.
there is a big difference between south korea and america during vietnam and all the other wars.. we our soldiers fucked up.. they went to jail. did any koreans go to jail for what they did in vietnam? hell no. they are worshipped for helping to build korea. another distinction that needs to be drawn here.. i never said all of our soldiers are angels.. we certainly have a small group that does stupid stuff however we don’t permit the wholesale slaughter of villages and then cover it up. nor would we try to talk crap to another asian country for worshipping their war criminals while ours walked free in our country.
Orankay,
I could be wrong, but it seems to me you find much to agree with in the program to point out the collaborative elements in Korea during the colonial period…?…..I wonder why….
I agree the Rhee government wasn’t a great step forward and that Korea probably could have grown as a nation as quickly or faster without the military dictators….
….but I don’t believe the desire to hunt down pro-Japanese (anti-Korean????) elements, like Kim Jung Il did in North Korea, was a good idea.
In short, I think was the right more for Rhee and those who supported the idea to not start a witch hunt as they did in the North, which would have been more about taking wealth and putting it in “the right hands.”
I don’t think the pro-Japanese hunt would have furthered democracy at all or been positive for South Korean society at all.
Again, I believe the line between “collaboration” is not nearly as black and white as people like to pretend.
Should all Koreans have steadfastly worked for all business and industry in Korea to fail during the colonial period because any efforts to build industry would just support the colonial effort of Japan in some way? When does working within the system become collaboration? It seems to me the common idea in Korea is that any cooperation/working within the system was collaborative. That only the people in jail or in Manchuria fighting the Japanese with guns were the real non-collaborators, and EVERYBODY else were simply cowering under tyranny, and if they weren’t in these two groups, they were collaborators.
This is a simplistic idea, but I think it does fit the general sense I got from adults who sometimes talked about this……..They might talk about it, but they really didn’t want to get into defining it or looking into “the truth” of it…
I’m interested in knowing what you think.
Captain Scarlet,
“SS,
you brought up a good point. i think we may be off topic here discussing Nogunri and i don’t want to abuse the Marmot’s comments section.
if you want to continue this via email i’ll be more than happy to but considering you are mixing up your facts i doubt you will be able to be convinced by anything i say so it is probably pointless.
since you don’t think the BBC is anti-american i doubt you have a firm grasp of what bias is anyway.”
and
“SS,
one more thing.. if you chose to respond.. tell me why no one was prosecuted for war crimes of it really happened. if you say someone buried the story you better have proof.”
Maybe I?쨈ve misinterpreted your statements. You?쨈re asking often for “proof” or any other trustable sources, articles for my opinions, but you never present such things vice versa, when you make your assertions/ thesies to certain topics, which I often view as wrong or exaggerated due to … what? your ignorance? I hope not.
Sugar Shin, to each his own but i think it’s a waste of time to try and counter these fools; they’re not interested in debate, they’re interested in more therapy to soothe their angry souls. most of the folks here are simply your garden variety korea basher who lives with a psychollogically devastatsing contradiction; you see, they hate all things korean but at the same time are absolutely in love with korean women. they just can’t live without em. that’s why they never ever leave but then set up websites designed to promote bigotry towards koreans.
that’s the angry expat in a nutshell. hates korea, hates korean people, but loves the korean woman.
and they hate themselves for that.
your posts are well written but i think in the end they’re a waste of time. this japan thing is just another avenue to get back at the koreans. nothing more.
have a good day, Mr Shin.
ps ask one of these guys why they would live in a place they obviously hate. they won’t answer. the above is why.
and they hate themselves for it.
just ask gerry.
Hello, Mr. Shin Jong-Il(I guess now, or do you want to be anonymous this time?).
I?쨈m new here at Marmot?쨈s, so I can?쨈t affirm your theory about the “angry expat brigade”. But anyway, if I can, I will a little bit disturb the “Korea Tea Party”-mood among the “angry souls”, you have described above. I think, you?쨈re becoming as bitterly as some of our “angry” expats are. If they want to dance to their Yankee-doodle-tune, we should shout out our Aegukka (although you have American citizenship, if you are SJI), muhuahua. Sometimes I like this crazy verbal fencing. I?쨈m totally aware that nobody would be convinced anyway, the same goes for me when I notice the comments of persons like Mr. Gerry Bevers etc. It?쨈s only a game like a rethoric duel - and I hate to lose. That?쨈s it. Period.
I always enjoy your postings and I don?쨈t give a f*ck what the guys here think about me.
I wish you the best, Mr. Shin Jong-Il, wherever you may be.
Replying to your own posts; how asinine.
Mr Sugar Shin, i won’t be leaving but i just wouldn’t dain to argue with these types, that’s all.
i pressed the post button before realizing i forgot to put my name. no intent to conceal who wrote it.
lastly, mr shin jong il is one person, and mr sugar shin in another. understand, pig?
Shin Jong-il, I don’t know about some of the other posters here, but I don’t “hate all things Korean,” I’m not a Korea-basher, and frankly, I’m not angry. I love living here, I find it interesting, and as you know from reading this blog, I’m not even married to a Korean. I’ve chosen (stress on the “chosen”) to live here despite the not-so-insignificant hassles (in terms of bureaucracy) that come when you marry a foreigner from a developing country. I love this place (much to the chagrin of my wife) and can’t think of a place I’d rather be. I could hassle you about being a Korean patriot living in the States (you do, don’t you), but to do so would be a) unfair, and b) pointless. Now, when you make statements like “they hate all things korean but at the same time are absolutely in love with korean women,” you come off as the polar opposite of the “angry expat brigade,” i.e. the “Korean Male Dick-Envy Brigade,” of which I know, judging from your often insightful and intelligent posts, you most certainly are not a member.
And yes, Shin, while the Japan thing may be a way for some expats to “get back at Korea,” that was not the point of MY post. If you read the Korean papers, you know that this is a huge, huge issue right now with the legislature passing a bill calling for investigations into colonial collaboration. You also know, of course, that for a number of reasons, anti-Japanese sentiment has been on the rise lately. If my post offends you, I’m sorry, but that’s simply my personal take on things. Yes, it’s a view that’s definately in the minority as far as Korean public opinion is concerned, but it’s mine, nevertheless. You’re free to disagree, of course (although given the Chosun’s argument in the post, I’m not sure how you could), but don’t condemn me (if, in fact, you meant to include me) for being a Korea-hating angry expat who’s here because I dig Korean chicks, because the characterization is a) inaccurate, and b) offensive.
And I’ll say it again — being a blog that deals with the news (and I do work for a newspaper), it’s going to take on a rather negative tone. Korean newspapers (i.e. not the Times and the Herald) tend to be negative, as do most current events blogs. For those who just want to read a “life in Korea” blog minus the acerbic social and political commentary, check out Korea Life Blog — it’s excellent, and you won’t find a thing that offends your sensibilities.
“i.e. the “Korean Dick-Envy Brigade,” of which I know, judging from your often insightful and intelligent posts, you most certainly are not a member.”-Marmot
I think you will delete this post from me, but anyway. Although this was part of your adress to SJI, I want to write:
not the size of the dick is important, “he” must have a good taste! My two cents.
Sugar — your two cents are welcome, and will not be deleted. I’m just not sure if you understood my point properly…
Mr. Marmot, I?쨈ve understand your message in your adress to Mr. Shin Jong-Il, also that you don?쨈t count him to be a member of the “Korean Male Dick-Envy Brigade”. I only wanted to introduce this taste-thing (childish, I know).
Further I don?쨈t consider you as a member of the described “angry expat brigade”, although I don?쨈t often agree with your views, but we agree to disagree and that?쨈s fine. Sometimes the brighter guys from the “angry expat brigade” make their points and set their deadly verbal punches precisely. If you continue (I?쨈m sure you will)to keep your diplomatic approach to the diametral, conflicting camps, I?쨈m happy to stay here for a while, bleeding and retaliating. Amen.
well, mr marmot, i’m surprised you thought the post had anything to do with you. i’ve told you before that i see a difference between you expats, it’s just unfortunate that the larger group happens to be the ‘brigade’.
as far as you dick envy comments, i just knew that such would be the response although i didn’t expect that from you. listen, i don’t give a shit whether american guys want to be with korean ladies, more power to you but my god, if you’re there because of that, then, stop with the assasination of korean folk. btw, your lady (wife?) is asian and my wife is white. go figure.
lastly, your comments about me living here in the states: you were not born and raised in korea and korea is not your country. i was born and raised right here and consider this land my own, but even if it weren’t, you could not make the case that i bash the states because i simply don’t. and even if i did, i’d be talking about my own country and not somebody else’s. i hope you’re not an american who only sees one type of person as being a ‘real’ american.
shin
ps your comments about korea/japan are one sided. while you’ve got plenty to say about koreans, you’re almost silent on things like yasukuni. that’s why i don’t see you as being even-handed when it comes to this.
How many Koreans were actually involved in building the railroads in Burma and Thailand? Last night on PBS they had anothor of theose “Secrets of the Dead” programs that showed the Japanese and Koreans killing as many as 100,000 people, mostly Asians in building the railroad…
Now, I’m not about to say that I am less of a sinner (that’s between me and the Lord); but how can we work out how to avoid the type of racism that allows humans to use each other up like so many Kleenex?짰 Tissues?
To get back to the point….
As an American in Korea (over 5 years), I have grown to feel that Korea is my home. However, as we all know, Korea is not ready (as a nation….not individual open-minded Koreans) to allow non racially identifiable Koreans to feel totally at home here. This is possibly the most racially self-defined nation on Earth….with Japan a close second…oh the irony.
Anyhow, I feel strongly that any anti-foreign feeling among Koreans is self-destructive and misguided. And to Mr. Shin, whenever a resident of Korea who doesn’t share the glorious bloodline attacks Korea, couldn’t it also be due to a sincere concern for positive change???
re Japan-
The other day, an 8 year-old girl told me that she “hates Japan”. I asked her why and she told me her school teacher says they are liars and bad people.
Houston…we got a problem…. a major, major problem.
Mr. SundubuMan,
you?쨈re welcomed to criticise Korea, the policy and the people, what you like. Well-intentioned criticism is healthy for every reclusive, hermit society, which Korea was not long ago due to her last centuries history of shutting out everything foreign, as a strategy for dynasty-stability and survival in a competitive, challenging strategic environment.
But here are some guys around, who?쨈s deliberate task is to show the “nature-given” evilness, ingratitude, sneaky, erratic, irrational, brutal, mindless, racist, malicious charcteristics of ALL Koreans and anything Korean. Criticism can be done in a non-offending way, but not with this furious intensity of hatred agitation to slam anything Korean from some of the angry dudes. And if a Korean responds with the same nasty rethorical weapon, he/she is used as a proof of all clich??s they had posted before. Further, if someone is touching the wounds/ ills of US history, society or policy, you can be sure, that you?쨈re promptly stamped as an racist anit-American, Westerner-hater or simply a Korean imbecile. Many angry Us expats here are in the same way intolerantly resistant towards criticism or polemic approaches from Koreans or even Korean-Americans.
“This is possibly the most racially self-defined nation on Earth….with Japan a close second…oh the irony.” - You maybe right with this assessment. Taking Korea?쨈s and Japan?쨈s reclusive history and the radical Neo-Confucian culture into consideration, it will change with the further opening up after the post-industrialization to the globalization process in NE Asia. The USA as a typical multi-ethnical, immigration-friendly country had in its past until nowadays also problems with racial confrontations. It?쨈s not easy for a nearly 99%-homogenious people to radically change its attitude in a matter of decades, when it took centuries to implement the blood-orientated in the minds of the average Korean. But Koreans are
fast-learner, don?쨈t bother…
SS,
there is no ignorance on my part. the BBC is horribly biased against america and if you quote them as a source for information about Nogunri you are being intellectually dishonest IMO.
i don’t plan on getting into an email battle with someone that is only looking for sources that support his opinion on a subject and ignoring glaring facts that don’t support it. its boring and i don’t have time for it. i got into a long comment war over at http://www.emptybottle.org with the site owner about Nogunri and if you can find the post you’ll have all your answers.
i also don’t care to have a discussion with someone that is too lazy to look for information themselves and needs me to spoon feed them the information.
also, i don’t hate korea. i had a great time living there and i have a few friends there.
SS,
Please list for me the people you mean by this statement:
“But here are some guys around, who?쨈s deliberate task is to show the “nature-given” evilness, ingratitude, sneaky, erratic, irrational, brutal, mindless, racist, malicious charcteristics of ALL Koreans and anything Korean.”
Give me some names of the people. Many of the regular commentators here have blogs on Korea of their own. I’d like to take a look at what the rabid Korea hating racists write day to day.
Also, how much time have you spent in Korea?
SS,
I agree with much of what you wrote. Korea and Japan, a peninsula dangling off the world’s most populous country and a chain of islands floating of the selfsame country respectively, were bound by history to evolve into inward-looking societies.
However, history cannot excuse current mistakes. And when foreigners point those out, Koreans should take them at face value and not react with that famous Korean emotionalism (which, in most cases is what I love so much about Korea, the laughter and the tears).
Here is the situation as I see it (and by the way, I spent a year training nearly 500 public school teachers in Seoul, which translates to 100,000 impressionable Korean schoolkids). Among the teachers I trained (junior and senior high) a good 20% were anti-American and probably close to 80% are anti-Japanese. So, if you do the math, basically EVERY single Korea kid, has at some point in time, been taught to either dislike, distrust, or hate America or Japan.
And given the nature of the Korean school system, there is virtually no chance that such instruction would ever be censored by parents or the government.
And, when ONE largely unpurchased Japanese textbook fails to mention comfort women, 10,000 Korean teachers tell 1,000,000 Korean kids that the Japanese are bad people and liars.
Really now, who has the problem????? If you were Japnaese, why would you bother even talking to Koreans on such subjects, especially when one of the two Koreas has lobbed a missile over your land and is pursuing nuclear weapons??
And inability to forgive is as evil as an inability to acknowledge the truth.
‘give me some names…’ usinkorea
why not start with the ‘rathbone press’ as it’s a clear example of what it is to be a member of the brigade. the blog is one long hatchett job taking every opportunity to slice and dice the koreans. take his most recent post, first he starts off with an article about a korean american scientist winning an award in ths states and then turns around and uses it as instrument to bash, bash, bash. his blog is just about his hatred and nothing more.
if you’re not satisfied with rathbone as an example. take a look at gerry bevers stuff. in his view, it’s not the japanese who are responsible for the rape of nanjing, it’s acutally the koreans. or, the japanese aren’t responsible for the bataan death march, the koreans are. on and on he goes fueled by some darkness that never fades.
SJI,
so some americans are giving back to korea what koreans have been giving to us for the past year or so. big deal. remember “fucking USA” and all the other hits that were popular in korea? i guess it is only a race thing when white people do it.
SS
I’ll check out the Rathbone.
I do read Korea Media Watch regularly and have read Gerry’s views.
If he is an example of the rabid Korean hating racists you speak somewhat frequently about, try again….
Saying Gerry is anti-Korean doing nothing but finding a way to rag on “everything” Korean speaks more about your own personal issues than it says about any objective Gerry has.
Also, you skipped the second question altogether.
How much time have you spent in South Korea?
SS,
Just checked out some of the Rathbone Press. I stopped at “Grokster: Don’t Even Think It.” Just like with Gerry, try again….
In reading Hitler’s My Battle, it wasn’t particularly hard to see his racism coming through.
But again, your blanket charges that “all” or even “most” of the non-Koreans in Korea who blog simply want to “destroy all things Korean” says more about your own hangups than it does either Gerry or what I have just read at Rathbone.
I have seen some ESL instructors who I would qualify as Korea haters posting at Dave’s ESL Cafe, but since you keep going after the bloggers and Gerry’s forum….
Why don’t you try countering their particular criticism rather than issuing blanket condemnations.
For example, why don’t you go into more detail about why the Rathbone Press’ item on the Korean scientist recieving praise in the US is an example of a hatred of all things Korean?
His point was that he doesn’t believe such things happen in Korea —- He asks why you don’t hear of other foreigners coming to Korea and achieving such success.
He was MAKING a point. Why don’t you counter the point with a reasoned argument of your own?
A good way would be to point out where this or that non-Korean has won scientific or other merit based awards (besides ones related to use of the Korean language).
usinkorea, i’ll do things my way, thanks. i don’t argue with idiots. i just ridicule them.
and you’re doing exactly what i thought you would do. this will be my last post directly to you.
goodbye.
‘if he is an example of the rabid korea hating racist you speak somewhat freaquently about, try again..’ usincorea on gerry bevers
this tells me exactly where usincorea is coming from. please show me where i wrote gerry is a ‘rabid korea hating racist’. i’ve never called anyone racist. that means usincorea made it.
blind AND a liar.
Mr. usinkorea,
You did?쨈nt read that you were writing to an answer from Shin Jong Il SJI) and not from me Sugar Shin.
But I go d’accord with his naming of Gerry Bevers. I would further name the guys like kimchipig or zhang fei or slim. But I only judge from the comments they had left at Marmot?쨈s comment sections to numerous topics. I don?쨈t know anything biographical of these guys are bloggers, expats residing in Korea or whatsoever.
You?쨈re so curious about me. I was born in Seoul, may partents are from Chollabukdo and Chungcheonbukdo and spent my childhood in the ROK. The vast portion of my (higher? academic?) education was in Germany, where I live and work. I know that you are an long-time US resident with a Korean family in Korea, who spent a hell lot more time in one span there than me, but I can get a grasp from your comments, that you?쨈re too tolerant towards the insulting behaviour of some non-Korean commenters here in comparison to comments from guys like me or SJI. I?쨈m not an angel either, sometimes I?쨈m verbally very nasty, but I always try (I fail also on numerous occasions) to differentiate between US society, US foreign policy en gross and the personal ideological views or complaining (maybe Korea-bashing)of the expats here.
So, miguk seonsaengnim, if you can?쨈t see the Korea-hating spirit of Gerry Beevers comments, mixed up with correct facts, but biased (anti-Korean in general) conclusions about the colonial period of Imperial Japan in “Chosen”, than I?쨈m really lost. His comments was nothing but spitting into the face of 23 million Koreans of that time, because of the “unacknowledged” facts Bevers came forward with, that the Koreans in consideration of their collaboration and feudal agrarian Choson-dynasty status and backwardness, the Japanese had brought modernity and enslavement to the Korean peninsula. Controversies about Korean involvement in the occupation and the colonial collaboration taken aside, this is not a constructive way and the most hurtfull anti-Korean apologists comments from a non-Japanese I?쨈ve read. Bevers can bash nowaday Koreans, if this is his favourite hobby, but pissing knowingly on the graves of the past and late Korean victims, though aimed at Koreans of today, is disgusting. My two cents, miguk seonsaengnim.
Correction of the word “enslavement” in my above comment, it should be “de-enslavement”. Thank you for your attention, Mr. usinkorea.
Yes, I just noticed before I read what you wrote that Shin had decided to take up the questions I addressed to you.
How long and when you have been in South Korea is important, but I do believe you can learn much about a nation and society from abroad, but you have to do a lot of reading about it. You can get a feel from the news media, but again, we are talking about degrees of understanding.
I believe my time teaching Korean adults has given me some insight into contemporary Korean society, but since I haven’t been in Korea for a couple of years, I do worry about losing that sense, but then again, when the news and what I pick up from other sources falls within my experience in Korean society, I don’t feel too off base.
I have also spent a fair amount of time with expats in Korea, mostly teachers, and I have seen a few “Korea haters” but I feel safe in saying you and Shin are more knee-jerk reactionariers. The fact that some people like Gerry have chosen to spend years of their adult lives in Korean society and have spent such time surrounded by that society does give them an edge on understanding what is going on there.
You mentioned Gerry’s defense of Japan during the colonization.
You have to understand this in relation to two things the common approach by Koreans to continue to live in that past by bringing it up even to the point of hurting their future. I can think of no better example of this than Roh’s recent March 1st speech and the “pro-Japanese” collaborator committee just voted in.
But, at the same time, as Korea is using the colonial era period to score points against others —- the Japanese, political parties in Korea, and often against the US stretching history far to lay blame for the colonization on the United States they take no effort to look at “the truth” of their own activity in this period.
Yes. It makes us all feel better about ourselves (Koreans and non-Korean alike) to say that ALL Koreans did nothing but suffer in the streets during the colonial rule, ALL the soldiers who served in the Japanese military colonizaing other Asian nations and killing Allied prisoners of war were “forced” to do such things against there will, or that ALL Koreans who went to Japan to work were slaves forced to do it agains their will.
However, that is just not true. We can debate about whether or not Gerry gives enough sympathy to Korea for the colonization. We can debate about what percentages of Korean society worked within the Japanese colonial system
(and I would like to point out that “working within the system” is NOT equal to being “pro-Japanese” in all or even most cases)
but anybody who has read some books on the colonial period must know that Korean society did not sit on its hands and do NOTHING to help the Japanese Empire.
Commenting on Korea’s selective memory of the past is not being anti-Korean.
Shin said he would not reply to me anymore. I am about at the point of not getting into these extended discussions anyway.
It is a waste of time to engage someone in debate when they simply take a post someone has taken the time to use to lay out a detailed opinion and do nothing but “counter it” by laying out blanket charges with no development.
That is why I asked to know who were the examples of the rabid Korea hating non-Koreans yall were talking about so I could at least get a chance to read what those people wrote.
Of course, I did not expect you or Shin would succeed in showing me a correct foundation for your blanket charges, because I have read a fair amount of the Korean blogs each day and read the comments to the blogs, and I thought the blanket charges of being Korean haters were much more intolerant than what these other people have put out.
And Shin proved my point, not to him of course, by the examples of rabid Korea haters he gave me to check out.
If you want to find regular comments that expose a strong bias against Korea as a whole….
try Dave’s ESL Cafe’s Korea Forum.
You’ll get a lot better evidence for your “bunch of Korea haters” argument to use against the bloggers who spend a fair amount of time trying to make reasoned arguments.
And I’ll close and end my part in this discussion with this…
sometimes you will find on the Korea blogs entries that are about nothing but something in the US (or Canada), and they will be just as critical (and often more critical) of their home country on this or that point than they are of Korea. George Bush gets some pretty harsh criticism on some of these Korea related blogs. Or John Kerry or this or that group will get ripped apart by some comment.
Blogging is much like the news. It focuses on the negative. For some reason, society does not publicize the positive.
You will read in every newspaper much more about who died yesterday than who was born.
The fact that expats who are making a living day to day inside Korea tend to write about the negatives is normal.
Leaping to the conclusion that they must be Korea haters who are miserable in their day to day lives is simply wrong (in most cases).
I need to do a better job of noting whether you or Shin is posting, because there is a difference, and I am getting who posted what confused and reacting to both the same way.
This is why having your own blog is useful. One of my main complaints is that it is much easier to write brief criticism of bloggers in the comments section when those bloggers are taking more time and effort to put their opinions out in a reason-able format. It isn’t fair to those who take the time to write up those posts, but also, it makes it harder to keep track of what you (any commenting non-blogger) has to say.
I guess we need to ask Gerry whether he thinks the Japanese involvement in Korea was good for Korea or not. I believe his answer would be “no.”
Again, I could be wrong, but I think the amount of effort I’ve seen Gerry put into the topic of Korean cooperation or standard of living under the Japanese is in direct proportion to both the amount of denial of such things AND their use of the colonial period to continue a very strong anti-Japanese mentality from the top of society to the kids in school and even to use the colonial period as one of the justifications for anti-Americanism.
So…..
>The Japanese are the ones who started educating Koreans, doubled their life expectancy, and turned a poor, corrupt “slave kingdom” into an industrialized country.I need to do a better job of noting whether you or Shin is posting, because there is a difference, and I am getting who posted what confused and reacting to both the same way.
This is why having your own blog is useful. One of my main complaints is that it is much easier to write brief criticism of bloggers in the comments section when those bloggers are taking more time and effort to put their opinions out in a reason-able format. It isn’t fair to those who take the time to write up those posts, but also, it makes it harder to keep track of what you (any commenting non-blogger) has to say.
I guess we need to ask Gerry whether he thinks the Japanese involvement in Korea was good for Korea or not. I believe his answer would be “no.”
Again, I could be wrong, but I think the amount of effort I’ve seen Gerry put into the topic of Korean cooperation or standard of living under the Japanese is in direct proportion to both the amount of denial of such things AND their use of the colonial period to continue a very strong anti-Japanese mentality from the top of society to the kids in school and even to use the colonial period as one of the justifications for anti-Americanism.
So…..
>The Japanese are the ones who started educating Koreans, doubled their life expectancy, and turned a poor, corrupt “slave kingdom” into an industrialized country.
Mr. usinkorea,
“Any person, who drops by and reads Gerry?쨈s comments (without any backround knowledge about the complex Korean-Japanese or NEAsian-history) would come to the conclusion, that some objective Korean claims against the Japanese reluctance to come clean with their past (as Koreans should also do, you?쨈re right) are totally based on hypocracy,…”
This would have been a honest and academically right way to qoute and not to spin the intentional content and sense of my whole sentence. I?쨈m coming back from a party now and I?쨈m drunk like a pig, but even in my drugged condition, I can see the difference between my original qoute and your use of it, because you wanted to make your rethorical point.
Phew, I?쨈m taking SJI?쨈s advice to me really into consideration, it?쨈s a waste of time to debate, because I?쨈m getting frustrated more than ever. I?쨈m going to drink my last bottle of beer and deliriate about your reply…
‘i guess we need to ask gerry whether he thinks japanese involvement in korea was good for korea or not. i believe his answer would be ‘no’.’
usincorea, captain 4th division of the AEB
‘the japanese are the ones who started educating koreans, doubled their life expectancy, and turned a poor slave kindom into an industrialized nation. ‘
gerry bevers, supreme commander of the AEB
actually, we don’t need to ask gerry at all. usincorea is just looking for excuses to protect his commander. good boy!
‘gerry is just reacting to korean reluctance to admit collaboration, blah, blah, blah.’
usincorea, captain 4th division of the AEB
no, gerry is reacting to his rage and contempt for koreans. he sees the korea/japan issue as yet another avenue to get back at the people he despises and loves at the same time. just like p. edwards, major general 7th division of the AEB.
members of the angry expat brigade, hear me now! try, PLEASE try to have at least one good day in korea. just one. if you can’t do that, how about at least one happy moment? try to have at least one happy moment in the country you choose to live in. ok? for instance, why not eat some good korean food? maybe a spicy seafood stew with some scallion and pepper pancakes on the side. ummm, that’s sounds good to me!