Tens of thousands of people affiliated with a coalition of conservative civic organizations gather in front of the Seoul City Hall on Monday to voice their opposition to pro-North Korean forces and social corruption/ via the Korea Times
Normally, I’d be quite pleased to see a pro-American, anti-North Korean (and anti-Noh) demonstration, but I actually had to walk past this one on my way to work today. Lots and lots of angry-looking elderly and middle-aged veterans — many in military uniforms — handing out little Korean and American flags. Not my sort of crowd — a little too brownshirt, if you will. I had no doubt in my mind that if Noh Mu-hyeon had accidently gotten off at City Hall Station, he would have been lynched.
25 Comments
That’s just great. American flags for March First.
Idiots.
are you calling veterans “brown shirts”? conservative groups/veterans=brown shirts? wtf marmot?
So it’s envogue to dismiss those Koreans that are pro-American and by that fact Americans too? Who in the hell do you think made it possible for you to come to Korea and study and now live there and work? I bet you wear your “Dear Leader” pin behind closed doors.
Yes, I’ve noticed the Marmot gets a little more native each day.
I am grateful for such a show of support. but it’s troubling to think of the way this support seems to be confined politically and generationally.
Incidentally, last week I was treated to a wonderful meal in Akasaka, one of Tokyo’s Korean districts (the other main one is in Shin-Okubo). Too much sochu though meant that I forgot all of the names of the new (to me) Korean dishes that I sampled. What’s that pig’s neck meat called?
Wonder if they trot out the same flags every year?
That’s just great. American flags for March First. Idiots.
Who knows? If not for that American flag, that other flag might now be a prefectural flag - not a national flag - and March 1 a holiday to mark the brave and glorious preservation of the empire.
Don’t tell anyone I said that.
No, I’m not calling veterans and/or conservatives “brownshirts.” Obviously, inclined as I am to the right, I prefer not to think of myself as a fascist, and I thank God everyday for the sacrifices made by men and women in both ROK and US military uniforms. What I am saying, however, is that I saw that demonstration yesterday, and I got the distinct impression that the particular veterans on display weren’t exactly the liberal-democratic sort and seemed more inclined to politics of the Japanese far-right variety. Hey, perhaps I was wrong, but I’m just saying, the vibes weren’t so good. I get the feeling Koreans looking on would have gotten the same feeling, in which case, one might express some concern that our [the U.S.] flag was being associated with such a congregation.
Marmot?!?
First let me say how much I enjoy your commentary and appreciate your translation of Korean news, giving us a look into the hearts and minds of all Koreans. But, WTF do you mean? Brownshirts might be the worst misspoken word by you, in your usually correct analysis of the situation in Korea. I am sure that you must understand that the vets and the older generation still represent a good chunk of the population, you and those with more wisdom can provide us with polls and more accurate data. I have lived here for eight years, being one of the first Korean-American orphans to be exported in 1956. I came to discover my birthmother’s roots, but have been disillusioned by the leftist communist fucks who now lead the ROK. Comrade Noh, and his ‘young fucks’ will give this country to the North.
I am a fiercely Conservative Republician who travels around Seoul with a “Proud to be an American” button, challenging all the shitheads who are anti-American to do something about it, so far for a year no takers just ugly looks.
I am a Vietnam Vet, I served with US Marine Recon, tried to keep that country free to no avail. I know many Koreans, could I suggest 40%, who still hate communists. As for the younger under 40 generation, we who teach them as English instuctors must also educate them to the truth of American interests and history. Many of my students have been told utter lies about America. But no one sings “Fucking USA” in my classes.
Please, perhaps you could give us a clarification of your comments. This is not a rant against you at all, just a mild rebuke. Keep up the good work.
Just a crazy ex-Marine
OK Marmot… I understand the “feeling” you got from the crowd. However, if you lived through the Korean war, don’t you think you would be somewhat “angry-looking?” That is, considering the nonsense going on lately with the Korean government.
Was there anything in particular other than them “looking angry” or “bad vibes” that led you to believe they were “brown shirts” or “Japanese far-right” types?
Alot of older Koreans (being steeped in Confucian tradition) have very facist tendenacies. If a superior gives you an order you shut up and do what you’re told. Challenging or questioning authority is out of the question. Alot of older Koreans long for the oppressive days of Park Chung Hee which is pretty brown shirt (minus the anti-Semitism). I’ve had lots of older Koreans tell me that freedom of expression is a bad thing (assuming they understood the concept at all).
Anyway combine Korean’s (i) unfettered patriotism and (ii) love of large organized group activity and the result is that alot of things that Koreans do (on both sides of the political aisle) remind me of Nuremburg 1936.
Marmot’s taken enough flak, I would just second the above poster, minus the Nazi references–there’s a drone-like quality to protests here, and a hell of a lot of protests to boot. It seems like some segments of society are on autopilot and nothing would satisfy them, but these tend to be the most nationalistic, ironically on both ends of the spectrum. That said, it’s always refreshing to see a little anti-nork protest in Seoul for a change.
I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you! I just want to say that I agree with every post above.
I should also point out that Marmots smell funny.
Andy — blow me. The wife says hi, BTW.
Look, if you want to chant down with Kim Jong-il, I’m with you. But I’ve got to tell you, the rhetoric that was being used at that crowd was not all that different from the Hanchongnyon crowd. Yes, Noh’s an ass, probably an appeaser, and cheap manipulator of anti-American sentiment. But those guys out there were equating him with Kim Jong-il, and that’s were I draw the line. Yes, people have a right to be pissed off at Noh’s North Korea policy. I’m pissed off at Noh’s foreign policy decisions, especially his handling of inter-Korean affairs, and I think I’ve made that perfectly clear since I started this blog. But when you start chanting down with the “leftist forces,” and by “leftist,” they mean, “everyone to the left of Park Chung-hee,” you begin to understand why a lot of thinking rightists in Korea think Korean conservatism needs a serious makeover if its going to stay relevant. And I’ll repeat what I said before — by waving the American flag like that, young Koreans will naturally begin to equate the United States with reactionary, fascist political forces. They actually make rational, pro-American forces look bad. Another blogger (whom I shall not mention) warned me of this when I was in Gwangju, but being subjected to Hanchongnyon’s endless crap down there, I wasn’t so sure. Well, now that I’ve seen them, I can say that said blogger was right on the money.
BTW, what Michael said is correct, the left and right extremes are both insanely nationalistic, and the far right, deep down, hates the Americans just as much as the far right (I’m sure I need not remind you of Park Chung-hee’s favorite phrase — ??쨍??짯?????쑣??? ?짯? ??흸????). They just happened to hate the Communists more, so for them, the Americans are temporarily useful.
Perhaps I do not speak for all Koreans but I do believe that your impression of deep down anti-Americanism is overly blown in exaggeration. Believe me Marmot, Koreans will always feel obligated to the United States for their hand in 1945 and 1950, regardless how peripheral they were to US “vested interests.” When Park Chunghee expressed, “what do Americans know,” I must agree that he had much of Jimmy Carter in mind. For all of Park’s autocratic style and the many lives passed under his repressive form, South Korea would not be where it is today without his centralized economic plan. Of course, discussion of Park becomes murky because of our cosmopolitan views towards human rights, but one must keep in mind that in terms of Korea’s third wave entrance as a “democracy” in east Asia, it would have been unfathomable without a staunch hand as Park. Such are the realities of “nation building.”
As a footnote, no disrespect for Jimmy Carter and his life’s work concerning human rights. It’s just that some states were not in the fortunate position to seriously place such as “the” priority. Grab any older Korean on the street and rest assured that they will still tell you Park Chunghee led South Korea out of its “barley hill.”
Not having lived in Korea for a while, I can only say that the “rightist” tone of the anti-Noh protest can only be seen as a natural response by many Koreans over the state of things in South Korea. Perhaps most of the protesters tend to be older, but then again what do you expect. Can one really think that it is those 20’s beseeching idiots who spend their time immersed in their “internet game rooms” who can make the worthiest of political choices in regards to the future of South Korea. Filial piety in Korea may be sometimes too overbearing, but you look at any other society, there is good reason why we delegate certain decisions to those of the experienced. Just remember, that the older Korean generation has lived through a lot, and without their sense of preservering patience in regards to their “life choices” those younger idiots would not have been able to play their mind numbing games in those internet cafe’s.
Once again, if Park stated “what do Americans know?” Marmot, don’t misunderstand the statement as representing some deep embedded hatred towards the Americans. Come on….don’t read your resenment into other people’s intentions.
Consider this: doesn’t the fact that to this day the South Koreans have not constructively established a nuclear deterrent of its own say a lot about its sense of moral obligation to the position of the United States concerning nuclear proliferation. Give the South Koreans some credit there.
hanin,
it’s getting very difficult to give the south Koreans credit for anything when we see our flag torn up in the streets of Seoul. not to mention all the calls to be “independent” from America whatever that means.
Once again, if Park stated “what do Americans know?” Marmot, don’t misunderstand the statement as representing some deep embedded hatred towards the Americans. Come on….don’t read your resenment into other people’s intentions.
Consider this: doesn’t the fact that to this day the South Koreans have not constructively established a nuclear deterrent of its own say a lot about its sense of moral obligation to the position of the United States concerning nuclear proliferation. Give the South Koreans some credit there.
Couple of points. First, it’s not a secret that Park had very little love for the Americans, and, of course, the Americans had very little love for him. Given Park’s personal background, his resentment of the Americans should come as no surprise. But he needed the Americans and the Americans needed him, so they cooperated. For the most part. Moreover, I fully understand the choices Park made as far as curtailing human rights in an effort to develop Korea economically as quickly as possible. Frankly, I would have chosen the same route. But let’s not kid ourselves here — I’ve yet to read or hear one person, American or Korean, who said that Park “liked” the Americans. Reports to the contrary, of course, abound.
Now, the nuclear issue. Your argument that the Korean government has shown a lot of deference to American perogatives is a sound one — examples, like Korea’s participation in Vietnam (or Iraq!) abound. Unfortunately, you chose a bad example with the nuclear issue. Much like Park’s dislike of the Americans was an open secret, so were his efforts to build an independent nuclear deterrent during the 70s. Again, I’m not faulting him for trying — given the international situation at the time and some really crappy (for Korea, anyway) policy moves in Washington, one can certainly argue that Park didn’t have much of a choice. If I was the South Korean president, and I watched Nixon announce that US soldiers would fight no more ground wars in Asia, pull out of Vietnam, make deals with China, and then Jimmy Carter come in and say that American forces would be withdrawn from South Korea, I’d be firing up the reactors. So I don’t fault Park for trying to build the bomb, but to say that South Korea has towed the American line as far as nuclear nonproliferation is concerned is, well, not entirely accurate. It goes without saying, of course, that as an independent country, South Korea doesn’t really have any “moral obligations” to follow anyone’s postion. This is where Noh and those in Cheong Wa Dae that favor “independent diplomacy” are correct, even if I disagree with their views on what constitute Korea’s national interests.
BTW, I never said that anti-Americanism is deeply felt by most Koreans, nor am I reading my “resentments” into others intentions. In fact, I try to avoid beating the “anti-American Korean” horse to death, because general attitudes toward the U.S. are way too complicated. What I said in my post and comments above is that at there is a lot of deep-seated anti-Americanism at both extremes of the political spectrum — emphasis on the “extremes.” This is hardly a phenomenon limited to Korea, and like most societies, there’s a wide divergence of views on foreign policy, including the nation’s relations with the U.S..
It certainly is enraging to see anyone’s flag being torn to pieces in the streets of another country—particularly if the flag is your very own. However, what could possibly explain the anti-Americanism that much of the media primarily focuses on but a much belated expression of the grief South Koreans have in not being ackowledged of their hopes for unification with the North.
If the Noh administration is chanting calls for an independent South Korea in the sense that it completely sever its ties to the United States, then certainly such a policy would be flawed. However, from what I understand—and this by no means is giving any credit to Noh’s mentality—the reason why South Koreans would be in the least bit attracted to the notion of a South Korean government that is “independent” in its North Korea policy decisions is because they believe this will bring some constructive change to the divided Korean peninsula problem. And if South Koreans are minutely supportive of such an independent approach, it is a sign of desperate measures taken by failures in desperate times. Of course all this is quite dangerous and one only has grave misgivings about whether it will actually bring the wanted peace to a united Korea. But heart of the matter is South Korea’s realization of solving a problem that is much important to them yet no one else of their allies are actively iniclined to support for reasons of pecuniary interests.
I don’t exactly follow you Marmot when you are skeptical of an independent South Korean policy towards their North. (note: by no means is this advocating an appeasing policy) Realistically if the South Koreans want the North to succumb to the realities of their own failures in providing an adequate form of government for their people, the only way South Koreans to achieve this end is to have the North recognize the South as the primary adversary to the Korean peninsula problem. I believe the only way this can be done is to have the North understand the South as having an independent military deterrant against the North’s claimed WMD’s.
And Marmot, you are absolutely right about Park’s plan in the 70’s. However, Park is Park. I’m not withdrawing any moral judgements for his political style; but, focus on what took place after Park. Was there any forceful measure taken by the South Korean government to rekindle that pursuit for nuclear capability? I don’t think so; and that certainly says a lot about Korean foreign policy’s consideration of the Americans as its obligated allies. (yes, I once again put it in such terms)
When you constantly hear Americans hear who talk about how the United States does not want a “client state” in east Asia, i.e. South Korea, then it only becomes obvious to South Koreans that they have to step up to the plate to address their problems that they previously mistook as being equally valued by their friends. It gives me much grief when I do come across the detached sentiments in America concerning America’s “commitment” to South Korea. They are certainly right in that there is no single attractive reason why American families would be willing to send their loved ones to fight for a people so alien. And again I have to remind myself what could one really have expected? One hears Japan and China being consistently touted in American discussions—and all seem to be for understandable reasons. But that still does not change anything for South Koreans in terms of their own sense of political hope. And all this is not a grim future for South Korea-US relations either.
I believe you also mentioned that you never heard any Korean describing Park as a worthy political leader in the post 1950 Korean past. Sometimes, in order to get the real tick that ticks the clocks of people, you have to read between their lines. Or at least talk to the right ones:) I’m actually surprised that you never came across the many older generation who will tell you this.
Anyhow, this blogging—I must note that I have just discovered last night—is quite addictive. Thanks for the feedback.
The only foreign folks who Park Chung-Hee used to love (and hate at the same time) were the Japanese, their military and culture he had admired during his time as a devoted soldier, later Lieutenant (can?쨈t remember his Japanese name)of the Japanese Imperial Army, chasing fellow Korean independence fighters in Manchuria.
This is the bitter truth about Park?쨈s regency over the South: we were ruled by an iron-fisted collaborator-turned-dictator who wanted to create a second version of his beloved/hated Japan on the Korean peninsula. The other bitter truth is, that a guerrilla fighter-turned-deity in the North (i.e. Kim Il-Sung)and his son have become the greatest mass-murderes to the Korean people in the entire Korean history in the name of Korean “juche”. In our long history, the only Korean ruler, who we Koreans could be unanimously proud of is Sejong Daehwang - the rest of the whole breed were like lukewarm tea.
President Roh might be a dangerously amateurish moron in the eyes of these conservative Korean right-wingers, but he?쨈s our FREE ELECTED DEMOCRATIC chief-of-morons, without any rolling tanks in Seoul 1961 (or chit-chat about missing ballots like Florida 2000 for the US chief-of-morons George W. Bush).
Bah, I?쨈m fed up with this ideological rift within the whole Korean society. No compromise, no tolerance, a total absence of common sense on both sides. Only flag burnings (US or DPRK, it doesn?쨈t matter, always the same shitty ritual)from either the extreme left or right, like a horde of enraged monkeys. I?쨈m totally frustrated.
Sugar, by common usage, Bush and co are considered “extreme right” by virtue of the fact that they’re willing to call a spade a spade and matter-of-factly say that North Korea is evil. If some Koreans happen to recognize the same thing (gulags are a dead giveaway) and are themselves frustrated as hell at “moderate” (common usage) meaning “people who give moral equivalency to USA and DPRK”, why should that frustrate you?
Anyway, some of us are proud to be associated with neocon policies of zero tolerance for despots, and if that makes me a brownshirt, biggotted racist white-supremacist, hey, I’m proud to be one, if that’s what it takes. And I’m proud to be a male chauvanistic pig if that’s what it takes to oppose quotas for women too.
I liked the way when the hardline communists in the USSR finally fell, the media called them “right wing”.
http://www.brookesnews.com/042601spooner.html
Quite frankly, it’s not those Koreans who are being insulted by being called brownshirts, it’s the Jews who had to suffer at the hands of real brownshirts.
Anyway, normally I would wear my own badge “proud to be a brownshirt”, except I know I’d be beaten up by people who of course will be dubbed non-brownshirts, even though they display all the characteristics of… well, I don’t want to label people, otherwise I’d lose me PC creds.
Well, Paul, at least you’re honest, not hypocritical like some self-righteous bs’ers who try to rationalize warmongering hawks like Dubbya and Rummy as if they’re sacred warriors for freedom and democracy and tediously repeat the same bs that “no WMD’s is still OK because we freed the Iraqi people.” Sugar, I agree with you that it’s frustratingly hard to make tractable sense out of the ideological extemes in Korea. It’s sad, but unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be an easy remedy.
It will be interesting to see the whole of South Korean society deal with the kinds of attacks on people like Park Chung Hee that Sugar Shin threw out. I expect such attacks to come now that the Korean government has decided to pick at the scabs of the past officially.
I don’t expect the Sugar Shin variety to win out, but it seems Korean society is ready and willing to open pandora’s box at this moment in its history.
I can’t understand why, but it will make for interesting news articles.
I have to admit one thing I agreed with Shin on which I’ve commented on elsewhere here…..Noh was a freely elected moran, and I think it could be good for Korea to see it can have freely elected morans at the top and not get rid of them through coups but wait for another election. I would not have predicted this past election would become so traumatic for South Korean society as it has been (in only one year) nor that it is going to get worse before it gets better —- with the “pro-Japanese bastards” fever that is likely to come soon and the rise of the Uri Party in politics after the next election but if South Korea has survived and accomplished what it has through the troubles it has also gone through I have faith they can make it through a Noh presidency.
I just wonder how long or if South Korean society will realize throwing around labels like “pro-Japanese” at people like Park Chung Hee isn’t as easy as they like to pretend.
I think there is much that was wrong with Park and his rule, and I resist the idea that “only his style” would have led to Korea’s growth, but he was pro-Korean.
I guess it is mighty easy and wonderful for those who didn’t live through the times to point nasty fingers at those who did live under colonialism.
It seems to me the common picture I got from Korean adults when they happened to mention the pro-Japanese issue, which wasn’t something they spent much time considering, was that ………
any Korean who wasn’t throwing fire bombs in the street and trying to cause Korean society (controlled by the Japanese, yes, but still Korean society none-the-less) to collapse in a heap of rubble — to spite the Japanese over-lords, were anti-Korean pro-Japanses.
I think the phrase, “cutting your nose off to spite your face” fits in here somewhere.
I’m not saying people, businesses, newspapers, and organizations didn’t cross some line between trying to make a life as a Korean under the Japanese and being “pro-Japanese.”
I am saying I don’t know who has the right to define where that line is.
For example, can anybody here seriously tell me, depsite the fact that Park Chung Hee served very willingly in the Japanese military….
that if the Japanese had asked him one day, “Say, Lt. Park. We were thinking about giving Korea back its sovereignty and ending our colonial rule. What do you think?”
Park would have said, “Oh no! Please! Great Japanese! Please keep your colonial rule. I want to be a Japanese!”
This is simplistic, yes. But I find so much I’ve heard here and there over the years in Korea about “pro-Japanese” (anti-Korean???) Koreans in the colonial era very simplistic….
It is a murky issue that Korean society has not had the stomach to try to define — and I think for good reason. It does nothing to “move Korea forward” into a “better future.”
I wonder if the groups that will be gung-ho about “uncovering the truth” of the “pro-Japanese (anti-Korean????) Koreans will try to get the Uri Party to push for “reparations” from the current chaebol who they might define as “causes for” Japan’s colonial rule?
At some point in Korea’s future, perhaps 50 years or more, maybe Korean academia will be able to look at Korea’s history in the late 19th century on through the Park Chung Hee period - and make some level headed sense of it through an honest, non-emotional-based, non-partisan manner that isn’t more to do with their contemporary political environment….
but South Korean society isn’t there yet, and I don’t see why they have decided to try to do it now and take on this gut-wrenching task at this point in time - it is completely counter-productive to the immediate and long term future the way it is bound to go…..
Marmot and some of the other commentors noted above how scary both sides of these street demonstrations can be…..
didn’t the National Assembly just invite the war into its halls with this pro-Japanese commission?????????
I wouldn’t recommend throwing fuel on the fire right now…….I don’t know why they think it is a good idea……
Woojay, I totally agree with you. You can find these self-righteous racist Iraqi pricks at:
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/
http://www.messopotamian.blogspot.com/
http://iraqataglance.blogspot.com/
http://www.iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
I’ve tried to explain 100 times to them that they didn’t deserve the freedom that South Koreans et al had, after all, they are Arabs, and Arab women are used to being raped by their own government and being fed to dogs. But they never listen. Perhaps you would have better luck explaining to them?
BTW, the sarcasm is getting a bit difficult to keep track of, we should probably go to normal mode, starting now. You made a couple of technically incorrect points about WMD, both discovery and the basis for war. Here is the answer to that:
http://www.qando.blogspot.com/.....0412513678
Marmot,
Hate to bring this up, but I think your reaction betrays a bit of your recent Kwangju life.
Unless you lived in Seoul through the last two years, with the MASSIVE anti-American demonstrations that many of us and the pissed off ajummas, ajeoshis, harabojis, and halmonies had to endure, I doubt that you could fully understand the demonstrators emotions (or many of the posters for that matter.
As they say in the real estate biz, location location, location. Over the last few years, I have been forced to walk past dozens of “fucking USA” protests and hundreds of anti-American posters.
My guess is that many of the protesters that frightened you, are in all likelihood reacting to the self-destructive insanity of what they’ve witnessed in the capital over tha last two years.
The older Cholla generation where you spent several years (I think) is fannkly, that much further removed from the Dragon’s breath 40 miles away. The older folks in Seoul lived through more war, and have had to endure more misguided protests than their peers around the peninsula. Cut them some slack.
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