Love him or hate him, you have to admit that Rummy has his moments:
The advance of freedom does not come without cost or sacrifice. Last November, I was in South Korea during their debate on whether or not they should send South Korean forces to Iraq. A woman journalist came up to me and put a microphone in front of my face — she was clearly too young to have experienced the Korean war — and she said to me in a challenging voice: “Why should young South Koreans go halfway around the world to Iraq to get killed or wounded?”
Now that’s a fair question. And I said it was a fair question. I also told her that I had just come from the Korean War memorial in Seoul and there’s a wall that has every state of the 50 states in the United States with [the names of] all the people who were killed in the Korean War. I was there to put a wreath on the memorial and before I walked down there I looked up at the wall and started studying the names and there, of course, was a very dear friend from high school who was on a football team with me, and he was killed the last day of the war — the very last day.
And I said to this woman, you know, that would have been a fair question for an American journalist to ask 50 years ago — why in the world should an American go halfway around the world to South Korea and get wounded or killed?
Of course, he didn’t stop there — read the rest over at the Oranckay’s blog.
42 Comments
This is one of the reasons I can’t vote for Kerry. Compare what Rumsfeld said to Kerry talking about ending the most arrogant foreign policy in American history. I think we need a Rumsfeld-type, and I’m pretty sure Kerry would consider the quote you put up as arrogant. This remark also reminds me of something attributed to Condalessa Rice by a Koran paper - that she asked a Korean government official if he knew the names of the two girls killed in the tank accident when the topic of anti-Americanism came up. Of course he did. Then she asked if he knew the name of the sailors who died in the west sea clash with NK and he didn’t….I’m sure that didn’t win her any friends, but I love it…
Don’t rain on the Shin/Sugar Shin pity parade with …. FACTS, you smug and cruel white 30-something neo-cons. These rants are therapeutic and help maintain PRIDE in troubled times. We have all seen this movie before.
Another thing bothered me. While Shin the Latter was quick to point out that Koreans were in Vietnam “cleaning the mess your government had created in indochina,” he failed to mention one of the most important reasons (if not THE most important reason) why Korea participated in that war — money. Now, I’d be the last person to criticize a nation for cashing in on another nation’s suffering, and Korea is hardly the only country to have done so (I remember listening to an interview with a former Japanese prime minister who bluntly said that “The Korean War was like a gift from heaven”), but since we’re going through each others dirty laundry, we might as well point out that Korea made out like bandits because of the Vietnam War. Just ask Hyundai.
Besides, it’s not like Rummy was saying to the Korean reporter, “You owe us.” He said nothing of the sort. All he was pointing out was that it was rather ironic for a Korean reporter to ask why her nation should send its young men to fight in Iraq, given the history of the ROK.
the young reporter probably remembers the tail end of the last us backed dictator. you guys remember dictatorship in korea don’t you? well, of course, you don’t! that’s inconvenient.
Koreans have existed under dictators for all but just over a decade of their history. I fail to see how the US was to blame for Syngman Rhee or any of his successors. Post-war Korean leaders were picked Roman-style - a group of influential Koreans picked someone they could live with, and he ran the country until he died. Note that it was the US that finally pressured the South Korean government into initiating full democracy.
Korean ingratitude and xenophobia are breathtaking, and another reason why USFK should leave the Korean peninsula forthwith. Maybe we can make a deal with the Chinese - we’ll give ‘em Korea if they’ll stop making a fuss over Taiwan.
It’s too bad Rumsefeld won’t really run for anything else. His sort of blunt responses is what we need from politicians.
but you spoiled 30 somethings from the united states (who haven?쨈t done even military service as conscripts), we koreans nowadays owe nothing
to you suckers.
Debts don’t work that way - just because you won’t repay the loan doesn’t mean you don’t owe it. As to those who charge that American help wasn’t entirely altruistic, that’s a lousy argument - the bank lends you money because it wants to make money off you, but that lack of altruism doesn’t mean you don’t owe the bank money.
“We were in a building that looked out on the city of Seoul and I said, I’ll tell you why. Look out the window. And out that window you could see lights and cars and energy and a vibrant economy and a robust democracy. And of course I said to her if you look above the demilitarized zone from satellite pictures of the Korean Peninsula, above the DMZ is darkness, nothing but darkness and a little portion (Inaudible.) of light where Pyongyang is. The same people had the same population, the same resources. And look at the difference. There are concentration camps. They’re starving. They’ve lowered the height for the people who go in the Army down to 4 feet 10 inches because people aren’t tall enough.”
That’s perty powerful.
Rock on Rumsfeld. Koreans need to be told the truth and not coddled with trite self-effacing culturally self-loathing Americans.
the young reporter probably remembers the tail end of the last us backed dictator. you guys remember dictatorship in korea don’t you? well, of course, you don’t! that’s inconvenient.
you know, it funny, most of you weren’t alive during the korean war but you go on and on about what korea owes for this. ok, so let me ask you all something:
what does the young korean owe america for it’s constant support of dictatorship in korea?
there?쨈re differences between the korean war and the invasion of iraq.
the republic of korea was under an imminent attack by the northern communists - the usa was not under an imminent attack by the iraqi regime… nor were their middle eastern allies in a danger to be attacked by saddam hussein.
the usa should have finished the job in the first gulf war, but you haven?쨈t because of political & strategic reasons. the usa have betrayed the shiites and the kurds: smells like “pig bay”-spirit in cuba…
the defense of the rok was approved by the security council of the un - america?쨈s unilateral decision to attack iraq was not an action of the international community (don?쨈t call the uk, australia and fidji a great coalition of the willing)… with this comparison you?쨈re discrediting the honorable cause of the korean veterans in 1950-1953 and their overwhelming alliance of numerous states from all continents of this planet.
we?쨈ve paid our debts back: fighting in the vietnam war over one decade side by side with us troops, australians, thais and filipinos.
the rok divisions were blindly killing fellow asians, war atrocities happened and know the korean vietnam-war vets even can?쨈t get compensations for their “agent orange”-syndromes.
i haven?쨈t heard one damned qoute of rumsfeld about the korean troop deployment in vietnam… have you forgotten the “good” gooks & chinks from korea, who were cleaning the mess your government had created in indochina (vietnam, laos, cambodscha).
1948 - south korea under the jurisdiction of the us occupation force. the massacre of so-called leftists on cheju island under the eyes of the us military through rightwing extremists from mainland korea. one third of the whole cheju population disgustingly massacred in a rage of destruction… pretty a lot of juvenile, female and old communists for my taste on this island???
us backing of all korean dictators: rhee syngman, park chung-hee, chun do-hwan. 1980 a massacre in the city of kwangju, where a democratic uprising was gunned down by south korean troops und der the command of an us four-star general, who was at that time the commander-in-chief of all rok-troops. afterwards you gave chun do-hwan a first-class invitation to the white house in washington… we koreans haven?쨈t forgotten this “episode” of us-korean friendship.
i?쨈m not apologetic about north korea and its evil leaders like kim il-sung/ kim jong-il and their past and ongoing atrocities to the north korean people. but u us rightwingers shouldn?쨈t be so f…ing self-satisfied with your foreign policy here in east asia or in the middle east.
your hypocritical self-rightousness is pretty annoying…
i?쨈m grateful towards the allied korean veterans, who gave us a chance to gain the freedom and democracy that we koreans have dreamed of. but it took ardous fights of the democratic movement to reach this aim in the early 1990s. you us guys didn?쨈t gave us freedom & democracy as apresent, as you did to your war-enemy japan, we koreans had to spill our blood and endure tortures for this cause. you gave us the chance to become a free nation, ruled by law and the freedom of speech and human rights. we should acknowlegde it, because the people in the north haven?쨈t got this chance to turn their country to a better and humane course.
we owe to the americans families, who sent their beloved sons and fathers to this distant, unknown country our gratefulness for their sacrifices. they said “make it good” while leaving this peninsula and we?쨈ve done our best to built up our country, so that the korean war vets could be aware, that we were worth it to
fight and die for.
but you spoiled 30 somethings from the united states (who haven?쨈t done even military service as conscripts), we koreans nowadays owe nothing
to you suckers.
Mr. Sugar Shin,
Perhaps getting control of your emotions would be a good start to achieving reasonable political opinions.
Why is the US to blame for the dictators? Why are Koreans never to blame for what they do to themselves? I guess Chile is to blame for the riot yesterday. But, to admit facts, I used to buy into the “US support for them caused the dictators” theory of Korean modern history, until I read a book by a Korean on the rise of the opposition movement in the 1970s. When these groups begged Carter to not take out US troops — because it would take away any chance for democratic reform —- I started changing my mind. Then reading more government docs and other books, I saw how the Us was usually at odds with the dictators. And above all, the dictators-support argument seems to go two ways - the US should have overthrown the Korean government — or — the US should have left Korean a long time ago. Both of which none of the Koreans I taught over the years would have agreed with at all.
“but you spoiled 30 somethings from the united states (who haven?쨈t done even military service as conscripts), we koreans nowadays owe nothing
to you suckers.”
This should be on a banner at the airport where the international flights disembark to go through customs.
Ever volunteer service member coming to Korea for the first time should be able to see how much respect their committement to the defense of Korea is going to get from the average Korean.
He or she’s got more to do than just just get a grip on his or her emotions; Sugar Shin needs a better understanding of historical facts. Firstly, the troops that put down the Kwangju Uprising were under American command? Sorry, but no. The special forces dispatched to Kwangju were never under American command, and the 20th Infantry Division which closed the deal was removed from Combined Forces Command before it was sent down. And just so you know, Chun didn’t need American approval to remove the unit (and it’s not like Chun, who led an army mutiny on 12.12, was adverse to breaking the chain of command, in any event). And while Koreans may not have “forgotten” this little episode of U.S.-ROK friendship, the latter Shin seems to have forgotten that Chun was invited to the White House in return for commuting Kim Dae-jung’s death sentence.
And bringing up the whole UN thing is rather unwise. Yes, the UN approved the defense of Korea while it did not approve the invasion of Iraq (depending on who you ask), but I should point out that the Soviets sat out the UN vote and the PRC wasn’t even represented, so it’s not quite the same, is it? And while the “overwhelming alliance of numerous states from all continents of this planet” that fought in the Korean War was indeed large (16 nations, not including those that sent medical teams), not only was it smaller than the one participating in Iraq in terms of number of nations (35 have forces in Iraq, last time I checked), but the UN force in Korea was, like the Iraq coalition, a predominantly Anglo/American one with a fair number of “smaller” states (like Ethiopia and Columbia) going along for the ride.
And not to take anything away from the pro-democracy movement in Korea, but why is it that the U.S. seems to shoulder the blame for Park Chung-hee and Chun Doo-hwan (which, given the fact that a) the U.S. did not bring either one of them to power, and b) didn’t exactly enjoy the best of relations with either of them, seems to me rather unfair), while at the same time getting no credit whatsoever for its efforts to pressure said regimes to democratize? To be fair to Sugar Shin, he does at least recognize that American protection did allow South Korea to develop into a democratic nation (even if it took a while), which is more than a lot of people do.
Moreover, “hypocritical self-rightousness” is hardly a phenomenon limited to the American right. Read the Hankyoreh lately?
I was struck a little after reading these comments when I thought of the farmer’s riots yesterday. Why am I supposed to believe Kwangju and Jeju and the dictators and all this is the fault of the US when on non-US related matters, I see Korean bashing the crap out of each other? (This is a question not a statement, because I just starting thinking about it this way.) Korea has a fairly functioning democracy, but we see a minority using brute force to throw a monkey wrench into democratic processes. And think back to the recent rather nasty riots when Seoul tried to get rid of the shanties to make way for a construction project…..And from my reading of Korean history (my area of study has been pre-modern Korea) civil disobediance has a very long history in Korea. If you read the government documents from Chosun, there is a lot about particularly the idealists in the censorate organs completely shutting down the government through protests….
I really don’t care for concepts like “gratitude” and “debts” — such emotions might make some people feel good, but they aren’t worth a hill of beans when it comes to making foreign policy decisions. At the same time, I’m not particularly high on pity-parties and pretending ones one shit doesn’t smell. I mean, granted, maybe we rightwingers shouldn’t be “so f…ing self-satisfied with [American] foreign policy here in east asia or in the middle east,” but at least we (sometimes) know what that foreign policy is. I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen an honest discussion of South Korea’s foreign policy in those same regions. And on the rare occasions that I do read discussions of it, it’s invariably framed in a “national interests” discourse that, as a foreign policy realist, I tend to dig, but ethical considerations do not, as a general rule, enter into the equation.
Marmot, do I have your premission to copy your rebuttal and put it in my comments? Shin just cut and pasted the same thing above in the comments over at my site and I’d really like to tick he, she, it off with the cut and paste bit…
I note the Sugarboy (girl?) lists a Yahoo Germany e-mail address. Perhaps a disciple of the hapless Professor “I may have been a North Korean politburo member but I wasn’t told” Song? That would help explain the twisted view of South Korean history……
yeah, folks, i was very offensive to you… and right, i?쨈m also living in this “old european” country called germany (another traiterous, igrateful us-ally). i?쨈m male, so not a “sugargirl” - but i think, i?쨈m now your targeted enemy, who dares to criticize rummy and you representatives of the usa.
it was a good laugh for the german public, when they heard rummy?쨈s whining and twisted speech about the war in iraq, missing wmd and the pathetic passage about the korean war, which was aimed at european anti-iraq-invasion-countries like france and germany.
i?쨈m not blaming the us for all the failures and shortcomings of korean society and politics, further i?쨈m not blaming the us to have been directly involved in the above mentioned massacres, coup d?쨈etats and so one. the us side didn?쨈t intervene in domestic upheavals, because their first priority was not democracy for koreans , but to regain stable conditions on the peninsula at any costs. they could have stopped the following dictators, but they decided for various reasons against it. i wanted to show, that rummy didn?쨈t painted the whole picture about the korean war and recent korean history - besides the pathetic, “glorious” us-intervention, there was also a dark, cold-war part, which he doesn?쨈t like to talk about.
(I really don’t care for concepts like “gratitude” and “debts”) - but this is allways the intentional message, when rummy comes up with the korean war-stories as a showpiece of us goodwill all over the world.
hey, slim, i?쨈m not a mindless leftist as you want me to push in this political corner. prof. songs fraternization with the north korean regime is undoubtedly to condemn.
about the kwangju massacre: the us commander-in-chief had to approve the dispatch of the special warfare command and units of the capital division
to the southern cholla/jeolla-province und give away his rights of command to the korean generals.
i knew, that the vietnam war was very profitable for the “chaebols”, but that doesn?쨈t mean, that the johnson administration was putting tremendous pressure on park chung-hee to take part in the vietnam war. although the korean public at that time wasn?쨈t for the korean dispatch, but as a dictator park could do anything.
yeah, it was in is for strategic reasons and the national interests of the us, that they?쨈re stationing troops in korea to contain north korea visibly (mainland china in a indirect way).
it was a strategic, political coincidence, that the us has protected little south korea, because they saw a vital interest in having a foothold on continental asia.
but my posting is useless, because your views and my views on this topics will not change. my german is much better than my english, so it isn?쨈t easy for me to write and argue in a propper language. yeah, call me a ingrate leftist, if this comforting you… “Korean ingratitude and xenophobia are breathtaking” - zhang fei, your opinion is so well-weighted and without prejudices. korea-bashing must be your favorite spare-time hobby.
to summarize: the usa is the greatest nation - koreans are ingrateful, xenophobic, leftist idiots and mindless rioters… well, you have convinced me.
by the way, mr. shin jong-il is a unknown to me. no family relations, i swear… so don?쨈t bash him, when you want to hit me, zhang fei.
mr. marmot, the fighting protagonists in the invasion of iraq was dominantly the usa, uk ( i think with 20000 troops, but i?쨈m not sure)and australia (with 1000 soldiers). the other 35 or so countries have been participating after the ending of the major combats.
in the korean war, most of the dispatched un-troops (mostly americans, but also from uk, turkey, australia, canada, netherlands,
philipines etc./ something above 23 involved countries) were actually fighting with the chinese/ north koreans.
oh, i forget to mention. during the vietnam war the uk refused to take part. i guess they were in a better position to refuse the offer of the usa - not so for korea, we were not in a political position to refuse anything. we don?쨈t have a special-relationship with the usa like the brits, we were only figures on the strategic chessboard - the game of the great powers.
but it?쨈s enough, maybe i was a hot-blooded sucker myself in being inpolite and offensive to
you…
i don?쨈t understand, why many of you expats in korea loves to bash and criticize anything in korea. if you dislike this country and the korean way of life, why do you stay here and complain at every possible occasion?
Perhaps your Swahili wil help you navigate many parts of the ‘twon — although I think west African languages are more widely used.
Well, Shin, if it is going to be tit-for-tat, yes, you most certainly blamed the US for having been, “directly involved in the above mentioned massacre….” Don’t write something and then pretend you didn’t, it’s right there for everyone to read.
Furthermore, you argue the differences between the Korean war and the war in Iraq with, “the republic of korea was under an imminent attack by the northern communists - the usa was not under an imminent attack by the iraqi regime… nor were their middle eastern allies in a danger to be attacked by saddam hussein.” So what it is that you are saying is that the ROK, with it’s people facing mass genocide, oppression, etc., at the hands of the NK communists committing horrific crimes against humanity, is different and therefore more important than the war in Iraq. Perhaps you are not aware of Saddam’s systematic extermination of the Kurds throughout Iraq. The fact that he had any opposition hunted down, tortured, and slaughtered along with their families. Or maybe the mass graves of the people he so willingly tested biological weapons on escaped your attention. Golly, it doesn’t seem so different now, does it? There are hundreds of years of history behind this war. Due to your comparison, I can’t believe that you have read anything about Iraq other than what you have found in a newspaper or have seen on television. Perhaps you should read up on it a bit before you try to make any reasonable argument about the two wars. You say that we have no reason to be in Iraq, that removing Saddam as a murderer and dictator is unnecessary, yet you fault the US for not intervening in domestic upheavals and the removal of various dictators in Korea. Is that jealousy? Talk about self-importance….
In response to the, “dark, cold-war part,” that you are so miffed that Rumsfeld didn’t mention, NOBODY, no matter how ignorant believes that the Korean war was a jubilee, that the Americans showed up and the North Koreans ran away in fear. You also said that the young Koreans owe the US nothing, yet it seems that you think the US owes you something. Okay, to be fair, what would you have Rumsfeld say? Must he grovel about the suffering of the Korean people during the war? Should he apologize for the war being a terrible, bloody ordeal every time he mentions it? Not to be a jerk, but that is exactly what war is.
I do not write these things as an attack on you. Nor do I question your intelligence. I question your information. You demonstrate a lack of it. It is your right to choose what you want to read or acknowledge, but it seems time for you to expand your horizons and take history into account before you criticize anyone. Were it that you had a better understanding of world history, you may come to understand things more clearly. Not necessarily the way I do, but maybe not so one-sided. I don’t ask for you to be grateful for anything, nor do I expect an apology. Nor do I expect you to accept what I say. I merely ask that you take it into consideration. You write with a great deal of emotion, therefore it is obvious that you believe wholeheartedly in what you say. I respect that. But if you want anyone else to take what you say seriously, you must take it upon yourself to make sure you have all the facts. Otherwise, as you well know, you are dismissed as a raving, leftist fanatic. You are entitled to your opinion, but it will only be that if all you have is more opinions and ranting to back it up with.
And lastly:
“I don?쨈t understand, why many of you expats in Korea loves to bash and criticize anything in Korea. if you dislike this country and the korean way of life, why do you stay here and complain at every possible occasion?”
You could say the same thing of so many Koreans and other foreign nationals living in the US. Many of us don’t have a choice about being in Korea. Why is it then that you, who so seems to love his country, is living in Germany? Was Korea so great that you just couldn’t stand it anymore? Maybe you are a political refugee. Maybe you didn’t feel like being drafted. Is there nothing in Germany that you would complain about? Just because someone lives in a country other than their own, does that mean they are not entitled to have their say about the goings-on around them?
Before you write a scathing, emotional response, I urge you to at least consider the idea that there is more to foreign policy in Korea than what is written in a newspaper or chatted about in an interview. You may find that you won’t be as easily dismissed as a nut if you apply more fact than opinion to your comments.
You could say the same thing of so many Koreans and other foreign nationals living in the US. Many of us don’t have a choice about being in Korea.
Uh no. Most foreign nationals are in the U.S. because we have the best universities in the world and they want a good education or we have the most dynamic economy in the world and they want economic opportunity. Korea has neither of these things. There are only two jobs that might require you to be in Korea if you’re an American (i) you work for the State Dept and got assigned to Korea for a couple of years or (ii) you’re one of the 20-30 Americans GM sent over to run GM-Daewoo … (and Brendon Carr seems to have established a nice niche living for himself).
Other than that you DO have a choice. Motivate and get yourselves the hell back home. I keep tabs on these blogs so I have material to use on my Korean relatives in the U.S. when they start going off on how great Korea is. Not my fault I was born to Korean parents (in the U.S. thank God). What the hell is your guy’s excuse. Stop your whining about Korea and start packing … I just got through 6 months there as an exchange student and no way I’m ever going back … the women aren’t that good looking … COME HOME.
hahaha… this A’OK guy is funny…
“i don?쨈t understand, why many of you expats in korea loves to bash and criticize anything in korea. if you dislike this country and the korean way of life, why do you stay here and complain at every possible occasion?”
What the hell is the point of democracy then?
I love rhetorical cartwheels like this. Come out with strong wording of a strong message, then play the surprised victim when people take you to task on certain things while claiming you didn’t say what you said. Pretty.
(the us side didn?쨈t intervene in domestic upheavals, because their first priority was not democracy for koreans , but to regain stable conditions on the peninsula at any costs.)
So, you are advocating that the US should have taken over Korea much like a colony — the US should have established leaders it wanted, and when those leaders did not do as the US wished, it should have removed them again, right? So, when Chun moved troops to Kwangju or Park otherthrew the government, US soldiers should have been sent with weapons loaded to remove those people from power, right? Yeah. I really believe you as a Korean would have prefered that kind of US involvment in Korea…
“about the kwangju massacre: the us commander-in-chief had to approve the dispatch of the special warfare command and units of the capital division
to the southern cholla/jeolla-province und give away his rights of command to the korean generals.”
That is simply factually wrong. I believe the unit sent in at the end of the uprising needed such permission - or the Koreans had to notify the US that they were moving them off line, but I know the special warfare unit — which did most of the killing — was not under US command’s control or needed its authorization. And anyway, this is simply paper talk, because Chun and others threw the rules and regulations out the window and moved troops around as they needed them.
Next, another neat rhetorical stance on the Korean economy gaining from the Vietnam War. It was the Chaebol, not real Korea, right?
Take a look at this site and see how gung-ho Park Chung Hee was to get Korean troops into Vietnam
http://www.state.gov/www/about.....index.html
“it was a strategic, political coincidence, that the us has protected little south korea, because they saw a vital interest in having a foothold on continental asia.”
I know the idea of mutual interests is difficult for a Korean to understand. It stumps a good number of people in higher education in the US too. But, I think in reality, you are still off base on the facts. The strategic planners said (correctly) Korea was not the right place to oppose the spread of communism. They wanted the US to keep its line through Japan. Truman reversed that in a stroke when North Korea invaded your nation, and he threw US troops back into the country they had just left to get chewed up in the first weeks of the war. My grandfather was one of them.
“but my posting is useless, because your views and my views on this topics will not change.”
Especially when you are factually wrong, but your English is fine from what you have shown so far. You made your points well. You are simply wrong.
“to summarize: the usa is the greatest nation - koreans are ingrateful, xenophobic, leftist idiots and mindless rioters… well, you have convinced me.”
Ingrateful - yes. That is a majority trend in Korea when concerning USFK and the US.
Xenophobic - well, saddly to say yes again. My Korean wife and I not holding hands when walking in Korea for fear of being challenged in the street (after having been challenged a couple of times) is one sign of this. The fact that non-Korean blood donors are often turned away from donating blood is a big sign of it. You have to admit, the Koreans put a whole lot of stock in “blood” - like not being able to understand why I didn’t know what my blood type is. And purity of blood is a big deal in Korea.
leftist idiots — no, this is a minority in Korea. nationalist idiots is a better word, but even here it might be too harsh. It isn’t good, however, that Korea is so nationalistic it is shooting its own foot off by running USFK out of the country and not passing the Chile FTA.
mindless rioters — yes. The majority of Koreans don’t turn out for each rally, but just about everyone of my adult students said they had protested at some point in their lives. What amazed me was when I would ask what they protested for, and just about all of them say, “I don’t know.” How could they not know? Well, they explained they would show up at school, and a senior would tell them to meet and then that they were going to protests, so they followed….sounds mindless to me.
The go home if you don’t like it argument is lame, and the way it is used is equally bogus. The fact that somebody detests Korean society’s hatred of USFK or the relationship to the US does not translate into hating all of Korea.
I think I can speak for most of the Korean bloggers I read in saying they do not hate Korea. It seems to me they are long time, perhaps planning to be life long, residents of Korea, because they have found enough in Korean society to make life worthwhile for them there.
What the go-homers are saying is really that if you don’t love everything about Korea, then you should leave it.
And next, I’d like to remind shin and the rest of us the orignial context of the Rusmfeld remark. He was telling the story of being challenged by a young Korean reporter who apparently threw a statement at him as if it were a question.
I think how much we interpret him to be talking about Korean society as a whole depends on how much we believe that reporter’s attitude is shared in Korea. But there is no way for us to know how much he was thinking about Korean society as a whole or not.
i like this sugar shin.
just a few follow ups:
1. most of you are in korea BY CHOICE.
2. i never said the us was responsible for dictatorship in korea. i said the us supported it. you see the difference?
3. while i do believe there are expats that really do like korea (marmot, korealife guy), i believe the vast majority of you are just hateful souls unable to comprehend why the koreans don’t treat you like movie stars.
4. from all i have read park chung hee saw the sending of troops to vietnam as a way of saying thanks. but the comments here tell me that was a waste of time.
5. remove the troops and stop blustering, ok? just remove them and be done with it.
6. OK?
well, schmitty, i?쨈m aware of the horrifying crimes against humanity saddam hussein did to the kurds and the shiites. but most of the world is ruled by undemocratic dictators and some of them match the gruesome level of saddam (i.e. “dear leader” kim jong-il). so because also western and democratic nations have to deal with such inhumane, dysfuncional states and “statesmen” there?쨈re certain international rules for intervention or non-intervention or engagement. no country should have the unilateral, self-righteous right to handpick another nation to intervene. this is the reason, why after world war 2 the us and many other nations recreated the defunct “league of nations” to the united nations, by providing a set of rules (international law)to interact on states level.
yeah, there are so many brutal, injust regimes and tyrants in this world, but you can?쨈t invade all countries. there was no unilateral decision of the anglo/american administrations to stop the genocide of the tutsi by the hutu in ruanda (1994, i guess), where over a million people were massacred. wasn?쨈t this as evil as saddams chemical exstinction of a whole kurdish village in halabja in the 1980s? at that time saddam was waging a war against the islamic iranian regime and was good enough for many western nations to fight the mullahs in teheran. the most democratic countries (also the us, uk, france, germany etc.)were helping saddam out with modern weaponry, fearing that saddam could lose to the radical mullahs. was at that time nobody aware, that saddam was a dirty murderer? there was a qoute of an american diplomat about saddam after his chemical bombings of the kurds in northern iraq: “yes, he?쨈s a son of a bitch, but he?쨈s our son of a bitch.”
the us-led un-intervention in 1991 after saddam had sent his troops to neighbouring kuwait was absolutely just. it was an unprovoked aggression aggainst an independent state, namely kuwait, an us-ally. this situation was comparable to the outbreak of the korean war, but not the invasion of iraq last year. there was also a approval of the un security council to defend kuwait?쨈s independence. you can?쨈t bomb other countries and inflict a war, because the president of the usa sole decision it would be a good action wether the attacked countrie?쨈s leadership is a bunch of criminals or not.
“So what it is that you are saying is that the ROK, with it’s people facing mass genocide, oppression, etc., at the hands of the NK communists committing horrific crimes against humanity, is different and therefore more important than the war in Iraq.” i was comparing the political situation of the korean war and the iraq war under aspects of international law and didn?쨈t say, that the fortune of koreans was more important than the iraqi people. after the liberation of kuwait the coalition forces stopped before toppling saddam and they have put the saddam regime under surveillance by the international community, since saddam kicked the weapons inspectors out in 1998. why wasn?쨈t then an interventionist war to free the iraqis? don?쨈t tell me, that bill clinton?쨈s appeasement approach was to blame for a non-intervention. if this was acceptable in the 1990s, why was it so imminent to get away with saddam in 2003??? he was the same monster as he was over a decade ago in 1991 or in 1998…
you have mentioned the miserable plight of the iraqi people under saddam?쨈s horrific iron-fist-rule, i agree with you. the north korean people are under the same yoke by kim jong-il and the same things happened and is happening to other people in other regions of this world.
why don?쨈t we start a war with north korea to liberate the north koreans? or why don?쨈t we intervene against russia in chechnya to secure
their survival? why shouldn?쨈t we invade simbabwe to free them from a self-inflicted famine by their leadership? why don?쨈t we bomb burma to free the burmese from their ruthless dictatorship, which is using slave labour and is exstincting various minorities in their territory? where should we start and where should we end? and who should be the judge to decide which intervention is just or not - george w. bush and tony blair alone? why don?쨈t we bomb pakistan and saudi-arabia, they?쨈ve financially backed islamic extremists and both are despotic countries with horrifying human rights records? the imminent threat and the development and proliferation of wmd was the most placated reason of the bush/ blair- administrations to go to war - it was false, there was not an imminent threat. bush, cheney, rummy and co. don?쨈t wanted to give the weapons inspectors more time to survey the stage of iraq?쨈s weapons development. two or three months more for them wouldn?쨈t have taken the rest of the world to a brink of exstinction by an hypothetical attack of saddam against whomever.
it was an exaggeration of dubious intelligence informations about wmd, which was used to justify this war.
“You say that we have no reason to be in Iraq, that removing Saddam as a murderer and dictator is unnecessary, yet you fault the US for not intervening in domestic upheavals and the removal of various dictators in Korea. Is that jealousy? Talk about self-importance…. ”
i was talking about the huge financial, polictical and military influence the us government already had at the times of military-rule in south korea over our dictators as an protecting ally and golbal power protege, with troops stationed on korean soil. the usa had already the tools to pressure this dictators (they simply didn?쨈t used it. they might have had their reasons not to use them. but then they shouldn?쨈t showcase the democratization of the rok as an direct outcome of the korean war efforts by the us), which they obviously had not in iraq, after the relations got soured with saddam after the iran/iraq-war.
“You also said that the young Koreans owe the US nothing, yet it seems that you think the US owes you something. Okay, to be fair, what would you have Rumsfeld say? Must he grovel about the suffering of the Korean people during the war?”
i don?쨈t think that the us owes us anything. but a nation that views itself as the first sponsor & promoter of freedom and democracy in the world and propagates its altruistic motives in their foreign policy in korea or elsewhere, should live up to their phrases or leave this phrases out and admit, that their past and future actions were and are not allways under the priority of spreading democracy, but under the aspects of special national interests, which i would never condemn.
the us shouldn?쨈t use this altruistic label to explain their foreign policy. the usa has interests like any other country has and if so, then the us administration should not use this humanistic label to convince critics, that their opposition to the iraq invasion was bluntly wrong. the nature of politics is not white or black. rummy was comparing apples with oranges to get his message through, that america?쨈s intentions in iraq were full of altruistic motives and that american soldiers were allways dying for other?쨈s interests or well-being. this is simply not true and unrealistic. there is nothing wrong for a country to seek its interests, but it should not position itself on a “god-given” higher moralistic level than their critics.
don?쨈t get me wrong, i?쨈m not an anti-american, who hates and wishes evil things to americans. i?쨈m concerned about the course the us is taking after 9/11. the us is isolating itself from the rest of the free, democratic world, even from their most loyal allies in europe. although the governments of uk, spain, italy, netherlands, denmark, poland and the other east european countries are sending troops to iraq - the majority of the european population was against this war and the usa ignored it. you can?쨈t shelf all europeans as uninformed, anti-american or as cowards. they fear your trigger-happy foreign policy. the disregard of the geneva convention (camp delta on guantanamo) and your own citizen rights through “patriot act 1 and 2″, the paranoia about terrorists and islamic groups etc. the european continent has experienced the most devastating wars, the holocaust and other genocides, totalitarian havocs by fascism and stalinism - but nowadays your actual administration is scaring us like hell and this is damn bad for america and europe as well. they might not have this aggressive in-your-face-attitude like koreans, but their opinions about america is deteriorating in the same way.
“Why is it then that you, who so seems to love his country, is living in Germany? Was Korea so great that you just couldn’t stand it anymore? Maybe you are a political refugee. Maybe you didn’t feel like being drafted. Is there nothing in Germany that you would complain about?”
i?쨈m neither a political refugee nor avoiding my draft. yeah, every society has its illnesses and shortcomings to complain about. but i?쨈ve the impression, that many expats are too overcritical and doesn?쨈t consider enough the culturally different characteristics of korean behaviour and thinking. it might be not very rationale or understandable for western eyes…
enough, you won?쨈t hear from me again. enjoy your stay in korea (if you want or can), you?쨈re luckier than me. i would change places with you without hesiation, if i could.
i like your sense of humour, shin jong il.
after USFK pulls out of korea, how long do you guys think NK will wait before they flatten Seoul?
“enough, you won?쨈t hear from me again”
– Sugar Shin
I hope that’s not the case. I enjoy reading his comments, even if I disagree with many of them and I think they contain some factual errors. He stimulated a good discussion, which is what my comments section is for.
About the seemingly negative tone of my blog — since this blog is, afterall, one that deals with current events, it’s naturally going to take on a somewhat negative tone, unless you’d like to read about all the great things the ?째쨍???????쨋??did today, which I gather would make for a rather tedious blog. Moreover, since I’m working mostly with Korean media material for this little hobby of mine (and, in fact, I work for a major Korean paper), it shouldn’t surpise anyone that the blog will feature a lot of bad news and/or bitching about the gov’t, because like most papers around the world, Korean papers (at least the Korean-language ones) love bad news and/or bitching about the gov’t, and try their best to fill their pages to the brim with it. It’s what makes working on this blog (and my job) so fun.
Clearly, I have a choice as to whether to live in Korea or not. And I have utilized that choice for seven straight years to remain here, and I’ve never regretted it. Not a morning goes by that I’m not thankful to be lucky enough to make a living in this wonderful land.
That being said, having spent my first night at my new home in It’aeweon, I’m clearly in culture shock right now. Nobody — and I mean NOBODY — should be forced to go through this kind of transition without the aid of some kind of halfway house or something.
This definately ain’t Kwangju…
USA A’OK, next time you open a i tag, er, close it, too…
Doesn’t speak well of TypePad, either…
Mr Shin, i hope it’s not true that you will never post here again but i understand if you don’t; afterall, you won’t be changing any minds here.
anyway, at the very least, drop by and watch me go head to head with some real god damn yahoos enslaved by the fox news network.
would any of you like a banjo?
Mr Shin, live well and enjoy the german schnitel with spaetzle.
goodbye.
How can minds be changed by reason-free emotion, fallacious arguments, half-digested Bruce Cumings
and deliberate evasion?
If we have to loose a Mr Shin (and this is not “Survivor” let alone the Fox Channel), I’d say send SJI back to the Korea Herald board, where he can bait foreigners and go “head to head” with foul-mouthed people who better fit his stereotypes about Americans.
Sugar Shin, grow up. Stop playing the blame game. Are you so naive to think that SK would be as prosperous if it were not for USA? Who the hell gained more from this “close” relationship between USA and SK? Who the hell will be the big looser if this relationship is to break apart? Let me give you a clue - it’s not US.
Grow up, stop having tantrums, become pragmatic, maintain open mind and become a solution and not the problem. Oh yea, learn to say and believe “I disagree with you but let’s work together to achieve a common solution”. If you want to influence an “800lb guerrilla” you don’t do it by spitting at its face.
sugar shin: to summarize: the usa is the greatest nation - koreans are ingrateful, xenophobic, leftist idiots and mindless rioters… well, you have convinced me.
Like creditors everywhere, Americans aren’t interested in how great Korea is or will be - they just want to be repaid. And whatever the ROK’s attainments, Koreans have shown no sign of being willing to repay this debt.
“there?쨈re certain international rules for intervention or non-intervention or engagement. no country should have the unilateral, self-righteous right to handpick another nation to intervene.”
Well, this is again just wrong. It would be nice if it were true. In 1989, I had great hopes for the UN, but alas…A group where France gets together with the Arab-oil led block to boot the US off the Human Rights commission and Libya gets to head sections on nonproliferation is not going to be a very law abiding one.
And above all, nothing is as simply as you would like it to be. National interests, of both the US and any Coalition partners, are going to decide when a nation spends huge amounts of resources, including the blood of its men and women, to fight for another nation. We didn’t go into Kuwait simply because it was invaded. Does this mean it was “just” a war for oil? Life doesn’t boil down to simplistic slogan-like conclusions. But Rwanda would have had a better chance of seeing intervention if it had oil….but then again, wasn’t that blood-letting over with rather quickly?
I know its nice to believe in things like “international law” as if they are the same as how internal, domestic, national laws work….but that is not the world we live in and will not be in the foreseeable future.
If it were, North Korea would have been bombed off the face of the map a long, long time ago, but they have a pretty good deterent….
Next, I think you almost had something when you were talking about Clinton…..You see, Clinton had a common adversion to sending American bodies to come home in body bags. So when the Bin Laden led groups bombed the two embassies in Africa, he sent the missiles to do the work. Missiles don’t bleed. There were a string of terrorist attacks spilling American and other blood throughout the 1990s that did not lead to anything more than a less than stellar tit-for-tat response which did nothing but make the Bin Laden groups more bold and convince them the US did not have the will to fight. And we didn’t, at the time. I don’t blame Clinton much, because the American people were not in the mood to support war. Now we are and have a president who wanted to do something about what Clinton went on television in 1998 to say was a nation that we needed to use the military against because, without a doubt, it would use WMD one day…….just the military he was willing to use was again……bombs and missiles….
Next, I went to check on Iraq War I and II stats the other day, and I found something interesting. If you take out the troops supplied by the Arab states, especially Saudia Arabia, who were scared shitless about Iraq having Kuwaiti oil and being on the move toward Saudi Arabia in 1991, the great coalition of Iraq War I made up only 12% of the total fighting forces, but in the great unilateral war of Iraq II, the foreign mercenary troops (I guess we have to call them that, since the war was “unilateral”, right? can’t call it a coalition, right?) made up 15% of the total fighting force.
Damn interesting…for a unilateral war….
If you check out the planes used in Bosnia and Kosovo, you also get the usual gross disparage in numbers — And of course, when the bombing and fighting is pretty much done, it isn’t so hard for the Russians to demand to “be part of the coalition” and rush troops to take over an airbase in Kosovo, is it?
And I’ll close with this…..for someone based in Germany, you sure have a clear view of the majority of losers who make Korea their long-term temporary home……..you also didn’t answer why you chose to live in Germany either, but that means nothing to me. Obviously many of the long term Korea residence have strong feelings about America too….but you started to answer that charge against you but left out the key part……..Anyway, I’d like to know how you can tell from Germany how the majority of the expats in Korea are pathetic rock-star-wannabees???
‘better fits his stereotypes about americans.’
slim
no, not sterotypes about americans. sterotypes about americans like you. do you understand there’s a differnce between the two, slimy?
i’ll be voting in the next election to remove that failure we call bush, slim. see you at the polls.
and please stop paying so much attention to me, ya rambuctious tyke. i’m beginning to think you have a crush on me. i don’t swing that way, slimy.
sorry.
I voted for Gore (and now regret it) but I can’t tell you just how downright scary it is that:
1) Sophist shin jong il has the right to vote in the USA.
2) That any US citizen who pays attention to world affairs (admittedly not many do, but SJI claims to) could be so badly misinformed and illogical about them. I mean you employ standard Korean irrationalism on EVERY post and then you NEVER honestly address others’ complaints.
I was trying to raise your game a bit and help you avoid committing dishonest dodges and childish fallacies. But you are beyond hope.
The Marmot is too kind and polite in tolerating your kind of crap. You must know that there are countless blogs where honesty and facts don’t seem to matter that much and your ignorance wouldn’t stick out so much.
Well, Slim, I have to disagree with you on both Marmot knocking out posts like that guy’s and knocking out his right to vote…..I understand your point, but ignorance shouldn’t be made illegal.
For one thing, hearing their voice, and understanding they could become the majority opinion, makes more of us give a damn and respond to them and try to show the rest why they are so wrong.
Not to such an extreme, but I think this is one of the differences between America pre and post 9/11. Why people like the comedian Dennis Miller have done an about face on some issues —
before, ignorant or ignoring or a feel goodish stance on some things seemed harmless.
“What does it matter?”
The Cold War was over, and a certain amount of the public debate went dead as some people became disengaged on issues or decided their attention was better served elsewhere, but the same groups that tended to defend the Soviet Union against American oppression around the world or even defend people like Stalin tended to remain engaged and took up new areas to champion against what they still saw as an oppressive America. This went beyond American society. I remember in 1993 or 94 in France when I met my first group of Korean intellecutals, I was surprised to have to answer questions like, “Why is communism bad?” as if I had said something totally outrageous when my response was to another idea I just couldn’t fathom
Rumsfeld & Co. are leading the US into economic oblivion. It was a massive stretch for him to compare responding to a communist invasion (Korean War) with supporting a pre-emptive, illegal, unproductive, human-rights-violating invasion of Iraq.
Even barring his war crimes overseas and his dismantling of the US economy, the man is one of the worst military tacticians the US has ever spawned. Even a lot of US troops hate his guts. The sooner the US puts ‘leaders’ like this in jail the better.