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	<title>Comments on: South Korea to build nuclear subs?</title>
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	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/#comment-1653</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2004 04:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=488#comment-1653</guid>
		<description>I wouldn't call running over girls with a tank an "incident."
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t call running over girls with a tank an &#8220;incident.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/#comment-1652</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=488#comment-1652</guid>
		<description>When the US sends our boys to act as sacrificial triggers to insure an N Korean attack will automatically insure US response, then there must also be some leeway for the inevitable "incidents". Otherwise, we will expose our boys to arbitrary and malicious snipping from the "hostile" locals. In an imperfect world, we must focus on the big picture and not on the 1% deviance from the ideal. IF we can put our boys at risk for the major benefit of S. Korea, I don??р꽓t think it is unreasonable to expect S. Korea to suck-up a few ???밿ncidents??? without making a big fuss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the US sends our boys to act as sacrificial triggers to insure an N Korean attack will automatically insure US response, then there must also be some leeway for the inevitable &#8220;incidents&#8221;. Otherwise, we will expose our boys to arbitrary and malicious snipping from the &#8220;hostile&#8221; locals. In an imperfect world, we must focus on the big picture and not on the 1% deviance from the ideal. IF we can put our boys at risk for the major benefit of S. Korea, I don??р꽓t think it is unreasonable to expect S. Korea to suck-up a few ???밿ncidents??? without making a big fuss.</p>
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		<title>By: submandave</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/#comment-1651</link>
		<dc:creator>submandave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=488#comment-1651</guid>
		<description>My take is that the Chosun Ilbo is blowing nationalistic Korean pride smoke.  The prominence of their "Korea will be the sixth" statement coupled with clearly inaccurate statements (e.g. "submarines use low grade nuclear fuel, like nuclear power stations" when actually submarines use enriched Uranium in order to make the plants compact enough to actually take to sea).  Additionally, the current ROKN submarine program is barely nine years old itself (first boat comissioned in 1994 as I remember).  And while the ROKN does well with their 209's, the ability to indiginously produce nuclear vessels is a very costly and difficult endeavor.  Just ask India, that have been working on their nuclear submarine program for at least 15-20 years already.  This one reason why the USN pushed so hard to keep our submarine construction line rolling, because once it stops there are so many single source suppliers that would dry up that getting it started again will be damn near impossible.  Can either the ROK economy or government support the creation of multiple industries that will rely almost exclusively on nuclear submarine construction for their sustainment?  I'm, no expert, but I doubt it.

As to the benefits of a nuclear submarine, it has accurately been expressed before that diesel-electric propulsion is quieter than nuclear and that the benefits relate to range, speed, flexibility and time on station.  All of these factors are essential for USN power projection, but of less importance for regional security.  For the ROKN, the major benefit I can see for nuclear power is time on station.  This would allow them to place a fully armed multi-sensor surveilance platform wherever they felt necessary for as long as the food holds out.  In the event of international tensions, being able to stay on the line indefinitely has its advantages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My take is that the Chosun Ilbo is blowing nationalistic Korean pride smoke.  The prominence of their &#8220;Korea will be the sixth&#8221; statement coupled with clearly inaccurate statements (e.g. &#8220;submarines use low grade nuclear fuel, like nuclear power stations&#8221; when actually submarines use enriched Uranium in order to make the plants compact enough to actually take to sea).  Additionally, the current ROKN submarine program is barely nine years old itself (first boat comissioned in 1994 as I remember).  And while the ROKN does well with their 209&#8217;s, the ability to indiginously produce nuclear vessels is a very costly and difficult endeavor.  Just ask India, that have been working on their nuclear submarine program for at least 15-20 years already.  This one reason why the USN pushed so hard to keep our submarine construction line rolling, because once it stops there are so many single source suppliers that would dry up that getting it started again will be damn near impossible.  Can either the ROK economy or government support the creation of multiple industries that will rely almost exclusively on nuclear submarine construction for their sustainment?  I&#8217;m, no expert, but I doubt it.</p>
<p>As to the benefits of a nuclear submarine, it has accurately been expressed before that diesel-electric propulsion is quieter than nuclear and that the benefits relate to range, speed, flexibility and time on station.  All of these factors are essential for USN power projection, but of less importance for regional security.  For the ROKN, the major benefit I can see for nuclear power is time on station.  This would allow them to place a fully armed multi-sensor surveilance platform wherever they felt necessary for as long as the food holds out.  In the event of international tensions, being able to stay on the line indefinitely has its advantages.</p>
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		<title>By: Ancorenalpha</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/#comment-1650</link>
		<dc:creator>Ancorenalpha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=488#comment-1650</guid>
		<description>Plunge, is the man in question a military man or a civilian?  If the latter, then I don't know what will happen, but if it's the former, then he'll be punished by MILITARY law first, and (once he's done with that) then he will be sent to SoKor for his punishment in that country.  US military personnel have to follow a code called the UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice), a set of laws that they must abide by no matter where they are because they are military.

  Having nuclear submarines is important for their nation if they want to be less dependant on others.  Unfortunately, the cost of nuclear-powered boats is far greater than that of normal ones.  Then, also, their primary design task is important.  Are these anti-ship submarines or ballistic missile submarines?  I'm not up to snuff on the details and specifications of SoKor's long range missiles, but if they are not of extreme range then the range of the boat is a big concern.  Perhaps they want to be able to drop missiles in the capitals of Japan, China, or NoKor, and be able to prove and openly proclaim this as a detterant to hostile action.  That and the fact that ships require ports.  Nuclear powered vessels can operate for an extended period (months, even) without returning to port.  COnventional vessels do not have such capabilities.  SoKor strategists may believe that a likely attack by a hostile neighbor would (in the early hours of an attack) cripple the ports that support their military vessels.  In this case, nuclear powered subs would be essential, as they would be able to reply in like kind for a long time before having to return home.  With the proper allies or ship deployments ahead of time, such vessels could be re-armed at sea and fight for extended durations.

  All this is speculation, but there are many reasons why they may be interested in nuclear submarine capability.  Then there are the aforementioned 'prestige' reasons.  I don't know the motivations behind their higher-ups, but I'm pretty sure they have a good reason for what they are doing, even if their attempts to keep it secret have failed miserably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plunge, is the man in question a military man or a civilian?  If the latter, then I don&#8217;t know what will happen, but if it&#8217;s the former, then he&#8217;ll be punished by MILITARY law first, and (once he&#8217;s done with that) then he will be sent to SoKor for his punishment in that country.  US military personnel have to follow a code called the UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice), a set of laws that they must abide by no matter where they are because they are military.</p>
<p>  Having nuclear submarines is important for their nation if they want to be less dependant on others.  Unfortunately, the cost of nuclear-powered boats is far greater than that of normal ones.  Then, also, their primary design task is important.  Are these anti-ship submarines or ballistic missile submarines?  I&#8217;m not up to snuff on the details and specifications of SoKor&#8217;s long range missiles, but if they are not of extreme range then the range of the boat is a big concern.  Perhaps they want to be able to drop missiles in the capitals of Japan, China, or NoKor, and be able to prove and openly proclaim this as a detterant to hostile action.  That and the fact that ships require ports.  Nuclear powered vessels can operate for an extended period (months, even) without returning to port.  COnventional vessels do not have such capabilities.  SoKor strategists may believe that a likely attack by a hostile neighbor would (in the early hours of an attack) cripple the ports that support their military vessels.  In this case, nuclear powered subs would be essential, as they would be able to reply in like kind for a long time before having to return home.  With the proper allies or ship deployments ahead of time, such vessels could be re-armed at sea and fight for extended durations.</p>
<p>  All this is speculation, but there are many reasons why they may be interested in nuclear submarine capability.  Then there are the aforementioned &#8216;prestige&#8217; reasons.  I don&#8217;t know the motivations behind their higher-ups, but I&#8217;m pretty sure they have a good reason for what they are doing, even if their attempts to keep it secret have failed miserably.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Mckellen</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/#comment-1649</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Mckellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=488#comment-1649</guid>
		<description>You know,I think that Korea just needs to be able to defend itself. No, that doesn't mean that the alliance should trashed and that American forces leave, but it will be better if Korean forces be able to defend their country in case the U.S. troops can't. And, it would also be better for the alliance if the United States gives South Korea full jurisdiction, as that is always a big issue in South Korea. For example, a U.S. man was caught dumping chemicals of harmful nature into the han River in Seoul, the capital of South Korea. And now, the he is being protected in a U.S. military camp in Seoul so that he can't be tried in a Korean court. The U.S. military says that the USFK holds jurisdiction in this case, but this is not true, as the man was caught dumping while off-duty, unless dumping was his duty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know,I think that Korea just needs to be able to defend itself. No, that doesn&#8217;t mean that the alliance should trashed and that American forces leave, but it will be better if Korean forces be able to defend their country in case the U.S. troops can&#8217;t. And, it would also be better for the alliance if the United States gives South Korea full jurisdiction, as that is always a big issue in South Korea. For example, a U.S. man was caught dumping chemicals of harmful nature into the han River in Seoul, the capital of South Korea. And now, the he is being protected in a U.S. military camp in Seoul so that he can&#8217;t be tried in a Korean court. The U.S. military says that the USFK holds jurisdiction in this case, but this is not true, as the man was caught dumping while off-duty, unless dumping was his duty.</p>
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		<title>By: Plunge</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/#comment-1648</link>
		<dc:creator>Plunge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=488#comment-1648</guid>
		<description>Excuse me for making this comment here, but I have tried to comment at the site &lt;a href="http://koreawatch.org" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://koreawatch.org&lt;/a&gt; and I keep being told to fill out the "proper" information. 

Charles, I would love to comment on your site, but it will not accept my information.

Next, a comment on your comment. With the South Korean aliances, I can't see them having difficulty in obtaining the required amount of fuel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me for making this comment here, but I have tried to comment at the site <a href="http://koreawatch.org" rel="nofollow">http://koreawatch.org</a> and I keep being told to fill out the &#8220;proper&#8221; information. </p>
<p>Charles, I would love to comment on your site, but it will not accept my information.</p>
<p>Next, a comment on your comment. With the South Korean aliances, I can&#8217;t see them having difficulty in obtaining the required amount of fuel.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Tustison</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/#comment-1647</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Tustison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=488#comment-1647</guid>
		<description>It only makes sense that a nation with no oil reserves and growing blue water ambitions/obligations would consider nuclear plants for their submarines and ships. It is quite a bit different to have nuclear reactors then nuclear weapons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It only makes sense that a nation with no oil reserves and growing blue water ambitions/obligations would consider nuclear plants for their submarines and ships. It is quite a bit different to have nuclear reactors then nuclear weapons.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/#comment-1646</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=488#comment-1646</guid>
		<description>If you South Korean commentators here want to be independent of U.S ground troop presence, I agree and I think that's great.   I'm all in favor of your assuming the full economic burden for your own ground defense--we (U.S.) need our ground forces for use elsewhere.

We can and should provide long range air and naval support (to include nuclear submarines), if you sincerely want to continue the alliance.  We have them already; you should use your defense expenditures for the upgrade of  conventional ground forces, and local air and naval forces).  

However, if you want to provide yourself nuclear powered submarines for prestige reasons, then be my guest.  In that case nuclear support from the U.S will no longer be needed; we can end our alliance with you, and you can assume your rightful "place in the sun" as a major player in NE Asia. 

I can't wait to congratulate you on that day.  I'll be careful to do so from a distance, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you South Korean commentators here want to be independent of U.S ground troop presence, I agree and I think that&#8217;s great.   I&#8217;m all in favor of your assuming the full economic burden for your own ground defense&#8211;we (U.S.) need our ground forces for use elsewhere.</p>
<p>We can and should provide long range air and naval support (to include nuclear submarines), if you sincerely want to continue the alliance.  We have them already; you should use your defense expenditures for the upgrade of  conventional ground forces, and local air and naval forces).  </p>
<p>However, if you want to provide yourself nuclear powered submarines for prestige reasons, then be my guest.  In that case nuclear support from the U.S will no longer be needed; we can end our alliance with you, and you can assume your rightful &#8220;place in the sun&#8221; as a major player in NE Asia. </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t wait to congratulate you on that day.  I&#8217;ll be careful to do so from a distance, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/#comment-1645</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=488#comment-1645</guid>
		<description>I have to echo Plunge's comments.

Check me on this, but my impression was that nuclear powerplants, as a rule, have a larger acoustic signature than comparable non-nuclear powerplants.  The major rationale for nuclear propulsion is range, not stealthiness.  

So is South Korea trying to drop its previous emphasis on self-defense in favor of a power projection role?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to echo Plunge&#8217;s comments.</p>
<p>Check me on this, but my impression was that nuclear powerplants, as a rule, have a larger acoustic signature than comparable non-nuclear powerplants.  The major rationale for nuclear propulsion is range, not stealthiness.  </p>
<p>So is South Korea trying to drop its previous emphasis on self-defense in favor of a power projection role?</p>
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		<title>By: Plunge</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/27/south-korea-to-build-nuclear-subs/#comment-1644</link>
		<dc:creator>Plunge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=488#comment-1644</guid>
		<description>"Nuclear submarines, which are propelled by nuclear power generated from small on-board nuclear reactors, can remain underwater much longer than conventional submarines propelled by diesel generators and are a strategic weapon carrying with them strategic significance second only to aircraft carriers."

I think that is the money quote from the article and it brings me to wonder why in the world Korea would want to build nuclear submarines? Is Korea now planning to increase its military presence beyond the region? Is it just a pride issue? The reason I ask is because it is hard to see it as an issue of national defense. 

If Korea is basing this upon defense, the billions of dollars it takes to build a nuclear submarine would be better spent on other military items. Diesel / Electric subs, patrol boats, aircraft and other items.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Nuclear submarines, which are propelled by nuclear power generated from small on-board nuclear reactors, can remain underwater much longer than conventional submarines propelled by diesel generators and are a strategic weapon carrying with them strategic significance second only to aircraft carriers.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that is the money quote from the article and it brings me to wonder why in the world Korea would want to build nuclear submarines? Is Korea now planning to increase its military presence beyond the region? Is it just a pride issue? The reason I ask is because it is hard to see it as an issue of national defense. </p>
<p>If Korea is basing this upon defense, the billions of dollars it takes to build a nuclear submarine would be better spent on other military items. Diesel / Electric subs, patrol boats, aircraft and other items.</p>
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