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	<title>Comments on: Koguryo artifact smugglers executed / Lee Chang-dong is a wussy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The Marmot's Hole  Hey, where did my 5,000 years of history go?</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/#comment-1400</link>
		<dc:creator>The Marmot's Hole  Hey, where did my 5,000 years of history go?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Aug 2004 02:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=447#comment-1400</guid>
		<description>[...] epict Korea. 	Anyway, at this point, the Korean government, which had been taking a rather low-key [...]
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] epict Korea. 	Anyway, at this point, the Korean government, which had been taking a rather low-key [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Mckellen</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/#comment-1399</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Mckellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=447#comment-1399</guid>
		<description>But the preoblem is not only related to the history of Koguryo: it's also related to the territories of Koguryo. If Koguryo becomes Chinese history, then nearly all of North Korea belongs to China. While Koreans have no intention of taking Chinese land, the Chinese do, despite the fact that their government already has its hands full with Tibet, Taiwan, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the preoblem is not only related to the history of Koguryo: it&#8217;s also related to the territories of Koguryo. If Koguryo becomes Chinese history, then nearly all of North Korea belongs to China. While Koreans have no intention of taking Chinese land, the Chinese do, despite the fact that their government already has its hands full with Tibet, Taiwan, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/#comment-1398</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2004 11:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=447#comment-1398</guid>
		<description>Let's say if anybody shares my point of view about Koguryo. It is not uncommon that an ancient kingdom went to more than one modern countries. If that happens, people in all involved countries can claim the ancient kingdom as part of their history if their don't do the claim exclusively. In the case of Koguryo, the kingdom did cover the current territories of Korea and China. China recoganizes that Koguryo is part of Korea history. There is no dispute on that. Then if the people in the northeast part of China claim that Koguryo is part of their history, it seems also true. There is no distortion on that as long as they don't deny it is also Korea history. China happens to be big and a lot of histories. So it seems that it is not necessary to claim more history, but it does not mean they can't. Let's  imagine a situation to make a point. Assume the part of Koguryo in China later did not became part of China, but formed another country, called Kona. People in Kona really need to have Koguryo as their history. Can people in Korea oppose that?  How is that different from the people in that part of China to make the same claim? There are many minorities in China. Therefore it is natural that the histories of the minorities are also Chinese history. Otherwise, the minorities would be unhappy. That would be discrimination. There is nothing wrong with that policy. Then what is solution to the current dispute? SHARE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s say if anybody shares my point of view about Koguryo. It is not uncommon that an ancient kingdom went to more than one modern countries. If that happens, people in all involved countries can claim the ancient kingdom as part of their history if their don&#8217;t do the claim exclusively. In the case of Koguryo, the kingdom did cover the current territories of Korea and China. China recoganizes that Koguryo is part of Korea history. There is no dispute on that. Then if the people in the northeast part of China claim that Koguryo is part of their history, it seems also true. There is no distortion on that as long as they don&#8217;t deny it is also Korea history. China happens to be big and a lot of histories. So it seems that it is not necessary to claim more history, but it does not mean they can&#8217;t. Let&#8217;s  imagine a situation to make a point. Assume the part of Koguryo in China later did not became part of China, but formed another country, called Kona. People in Kona really need to have Koguryo as their history. Can people in Korea oppose that?  How is that different from the people in that part of China to make the same claim? There are many minorities in China. Therefore it is natural that the histories of the minorities are also Chinese history. Otherwise, the minorities would be unhappy. That would be discrimination. There is nothing wrong with that policy. Then what is solution to the current dispute? SHARE.</p>
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		<title>By: joeee</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/#comment-1397</link>
		<dc:creator>joeee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=447#comment-1397</guid>
		<description>hmm.. very good points as always, marmot</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hmm.. very good points as always, marmot</p>
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		<title>By: R. Elgin</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/#comment-1396</link>
		<dc:creator>R. Elgin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=447#comment-1396</guid>
		<description>I talked through this issue tonight with some friends (Korean) and we have come to the conclusion that the Korean Government is *seriously* remiss in their handling of this issue, to which end my business collegues and I will now actively work towards raising the awareness of just how serious this issue is in the public sector.  When we have more details, I will post them here accordingly.

It ain't over until the fat lady sings and it turns out that maybe our lady has a pretty loud voice after all . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I talked through this issue tonight with some friends (Korean) and we have come to the conclusion that the Korean Government is *seriously* remiss in their handling of this issue, to which end my business collegues and I will now actively work towards raising the awareness of just how serious this issue is in the public sector.  When we have more details, I will post them here accordingly.</p>
<p>It ain&#8217;t over until the fat lady sings and it turns out that maybe our lady has a pretty loud voice after all . . .</p>
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		<title>By: The Marmot</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/#comment-1395</link>
		<dc:creator>The Marmot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=447#comment-1395</guid>
		<description>Mr. Hodges, strangely enough, I've got two versions of direct quotes, the first from the Kyeongyang Shinmun and the second from the Segye Ilbo:

1) ?짚???짯?????????짯??쨈 ??졙?????쩌?징짹??짯?????쩌 ?짚???짯??짯????징흹 ??짚?짚???™??짚. ?쨀??????짚 ??짯?????? ?쨌쨍??째 ?짠???쩍?????흹 ??쨈??쨈??? ???????째???????짚. ????짠???? ????쨍째?째???쨈?????쨍 ????쨔???짹?????? ??쨈?흹??째???????? ?짼???쨈??짚. ??째???????????쨋??째짢????????흹 ?쨀????????흹쩌?징흹 ?흸????????짠??????짼???짚. ??쩌?징? ????쨋??????흹 ?흸??짹???? ??쨍??째?짠??????????짹쨈 ????????짚. ?째?????짠???????? ?쩔???쨈?짠??짠흸 ????쨈????짚??짚?징흹 ????쨀? ??쨍?????쑣?쨀쩌 ??흸?????쩌 ????쨀? ????쨀? ??쑩???????짠??????짼흸 ????쨋??째짢?????? ?쨀??????짚??? ??째??? ??쑣?????????? ?흸??짹???? ??쨍??째?쨀? ?????짚. ?짚???짯????????짚???™??р꽓??쩌?????????? ??졙?????쩌?징짹 ??짯????쨔흸?짠????징?????쨈??™??짚. 90????흸??쨋???째??????흹??짯??? ?쨍째???? ???????째?, ????????짢?짼쨈??쑣??쨈 ?흸??짹째 ?짠??쨋흹?????쨈??흹 2?째짹?짠흸 ??째??? ???????째???짹째??쩌???????????쨋? 3??짹??? ??쩌?째???? ????째???? ?????? ?짼???쨈??짚.

2) ?짚???짯??쨈??쩌?????흸??????짯?째???? ??쨔??짹??? ??졙?????쩌?징짹??? ??징?????쨈 ????쨍째 ??짯????징흹 ?짠흸??쑣??짚?????짚???™?????쨍 ?쨍째?짠???? ?짢쩌??????쨈??쨈?????쨈 ????쨋??째???흸????????????짼??????????짚????흹쩌?징흹 ??쨍??흹??쨈?짼째??? ????????쨈 ????짠??????????짚.

Here's the definition of "?짚???™?, courtesy Yahoo's Korean dictionary:

1.[?짚???쨍짯)?????짚???????™????)??????쨍??™??쩌?????흹??????흹] ?짠???흹???,??흹??쩌?징짹(챈쩌?챈째?샖??)??쨈 ??쩌?쨀???? ??쩌?징짹??? ?흸??????? ????쨍째??짚 ??쩌?징짹??? ????????쩌??? ??쨈??쨈??? ?짠?.
2.?짚???짯(?쨍짯?흹?).

Basically, what Lee is saying is that if we (Koreans) first understand  Chinese feelings of "Junghwa" (i.e. the central/superior position of their culture vis-a-vis surrounding peoples) -- with which China absorbs the histories of minority peoples into its own -- we can see that a government response would do no real good in solving the problem.  Lee also tends to see Chinese historical policies toward Koguryo in a defensive light - after all, he points out, tons of Korean tourists, scholars, and businesses have been pouring into China since the 90s, not to mention that there are two million ethnic Koreans living in China, so this has to be sensitive issue.  In the later regard, he might be right -- China does tend to have "issues" with its ethnic minorities -- but as far as Chinese inclinations toward looking upon themselves as the center of the region, I don't buy it.  Yes, the Chinese have traditionally looked upon themselves as superior to their neighbors, but then again, Japan has a very long and proud tradition of ethnic chauvinism, but that didn't stop the Korean government from issueing  very strong protests (including the cutting off of military contacts and the recall of the ambassador in 2001) when the Japanese Ministry of Education approved a textbook that claimed, among other things, that the Kaya Kingdom was a Japanese colony and the Three Kingdoms paid tribute to Yamato Japan.  Besides, it would seem wise if Korea made it a point to nip this "Middle Kingdom" stuff in the bud before it gets out of hand -- you don't want Beijing to get in the habit of demanding respect from the barbarians just because it's China.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Hodges, strangely enough, I&#8217;ve got two versions of direct quotes, the first from the Kyeongyang Shinmun and the second from the Segye Ilbo:</p>
<p>1) ?짚???짯?????????짯??쨈 ??졙?????쩌?징짹??짯?????쩌 ?짚???짯??짯????징흹 ??짚?짚???™??짚. ?쨀??????짚 ??짯?????? ?쨌쨍??째 ?짠???쩍?????흹 ??쨈??쨈??? ???????째???????짚. ????짠???? ????쨍째?째???쨈?????쨍 ????쨔???짹?????? ??쨈?흹??째???????? ?짼???쨈??짚. ??째???????????쨋??째짢????????흹 ?쨀????????흹쩌?징흹 ?흸????????짠??????짼???짚. ??쩌?징? ????쨋??????흹 ?흸??짹???? ??쨍??째?짠??????????짹쨈 ????????짚. ?째?????짠???????? ?쩔???쨈?짠??짠흸 ????쨈????짚??짚?징흹 ????쨀? ??쨍?????쑣?쨀쩌 ??흸?????쩌 ????쨀? ????쨀? ??쑩???????짠??????짼흸 ????쨋??째짢?????? ?쨀??????짚??? ??째??? ??쑣?????????? ?흸??짹???? ??쨍??째?쨀? ?????짚. ?짚???짯????????짚???™??р꽓??쩌?????????? ??졙?????쩌?징짹 ??짯????쨔흸?짠????징?????쨈??™??짚. 90????흸??쨋???째??????흹??짯??? ?쨍째???? ???????째?, ????????짢?짼쨈??쑣??쨈 ?흸??짹째 ?짠??쨋흹?????쨈??흹 2?째짹?짠흸 ??째??? ???????째???짹째??쩌???????????쨋? 3??짹??? ??쩌?째???? ????째???? ?????? ?짼???쨈??짚.</p>
<p>2) ?짚???짯??쨈??쩌?????흸??????짯?째???? ??쨔??짹??? ??졙?????쩌?징짹??? ??징?????쨈 ????쨍째 ??짯????징흹 ?짠흸??쑣??짚?????짚???™?????쨍 ?쨍째?짠???? ?짢쩌??????쨈??쨈?????쨈 ????쨋??째???흸????????????짼??????????짚????흹쩌?징흹 ??쨍??흹??쨈?짼째??? ????????쨈 ????짠??????????짚.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the definition of &#8220;?짚???™?, courtesy Yahoo&#8217;s Korean dictionary:</p>
<p>1.[?짚???쨍짯)?????짚???????™????)??????쨍??™??쩌?????흹??????흹] ?짠???흹???,??흹??쩌?징짹(챈쩌?챈째?샖??)??쨈 ??쩌?쨀???? ??쩌?징짹??? ?흸??????? ????쨍째??짚 ??쩌?징짹??? ????????쩌??? ??쨈??쨈??? ?짠?.<br />
2.?짚???짯(?쨍짯?흹?).</p>
<p>Basically, what Lee is saying is that if we (Koreans) first understand  Chinese feelings of &#8220;Junghwa&#8221; (i.e. the central/superior position of their culture vis-a-vis surrounding peoples) &#8212; with which China absorbs the histories of minority peoples into its own &#8212; we can see that a government response would do no real good in solving the problem.  Lee also tends to see Chinese historical policies toward Koguryo in a defensive light - after all, he points out, tons of Korean tourists, scholars, and businesses have been pouring into China since the 90s, not to mention that there are two million ethnic Koreans living in China, so this has to be sensitive issue.  In the later regard, he might be right &#8212; China does tend to have &#8220;issues&#8221; with its ethnic minorities &#8212; but as far as Chinese inclinations toward looking upon themselves as the center of the region, I don&#8217;t buy it.  Yes, the Chinese have traditionally looked upon themselves as superior to their neighbors, but then again, Japan has a very long and proud tradition of ethnic chauvinism, but that didn&#8217;t stop the Korean government from issueing  very strong protests (including the cutting off of military contacts and the recall of the ambassador in 2001) when the Japanese Ministry of Education approved a textbook that claimed, among other things, that the Kaya Kingdom was a Japanese colony and the Three Kingdoms paid tribute to Yamato Japan.  Besides, it would seem wise if Korea made it a point to nip this &#8220;Middle Kingdom&#8221; stuff in the bud before it gets out of hand &#8212; you don&#8217;t want Beijing to get in the habit of demanding respect from the barbarians just because it&#8217;s China.</p>
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		<title>By: Horace Jeffery Hodges</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/#comment-1394</link>
		<dc:creator>Horace Jeffery Hodges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=447#comment-1394</guid>
		<description>The interesting point for me is that these smugglers were taking the artifacts to NORTH Korea. These weren't freelance smugglers out to make a buck, or they'd be taking the items to a place with more spending money. There must be a political angle to this story. Is North Korea having Goguryeo artifacts smuggled in from China because of the Goguryeo issue? This would make more credible the smugglers' reported statements that they had taken the artifacts "because China distorts the history of Goguryeo and ruins the relics from the kingdom."

Of course, if the North is behind this, and even if for political reasons, the smuggling is a very bad strategy since it would enable China to claim that 'Korea is trying to steal Goguryeo from the Chinese.'

As for Minister of Culture and Tourism Lee Chang-dong and his remark that the Goguryeo issue should be left to the historians, this would be appropriate if he were speaking about U.S. historians. In the case of Chinese historians, however, the remark is inappropriate because China's official policy seems to be one of claiming that Goguryeo was always Chinese. If the Korea Times article is correct, then Lee himself recognizes this:

"According to Lee, China has long considered their territory the center of the world, which has often misled the Chinese into historical distortions."

I'm not sure how much credibility to give this, though, since the Times is paraphrasing Lee rather than quoting directly. Does anybody know his exact words? If he did state this, then it seems an inconsistency for him to urge the matter to be left to historians. Or was he perhaps implicitly admonishing China for not leaving the issue to historians?

What do the rest of you think? Should the Korean government take a strong line against China on this? They certainly would do so against Japan's distortions of history.

Jeffery Hodges</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The interesting point for me is that these smugglers were taking the artifacts to NORTH Korea. These weren&#8217;t freelance smugglers out to make a buck, or they&#8217;d be taking the items to a place with more spending money. There must be a political angle to this story. Is North Korea having Goguryeo artifacts smuggled in from China because of the Goguryeo issue? This would make more credible the smugglers&#8217; reported statements that they had taken the artifacts &#8220;because China distorts the history of Goguryeo and ruins the relics from the kingdom.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course, if the North is behind this, and even if for political reasons, the smuggling is a very bad strategy since it would enable China to claim that &#8216;Korea is trying to steal Goguryeo from the Chinese.&#8217;</p>
<p>As for Minister of Culture and Tourism Lee Chang-dong and his remark that the Goguryeo issue should be left to the historians, this would be appropriate if he were speaking about U.S. historians. In the case of Chinese historians, however, the remark is inappropriate because China&#8217;s official policy seems to be one of claiming that Goguryeo was always Chinese. If the Korea Times article is correct, then Lee himself recognizes this:</p>
<p>&#8220;According to Lee, China has long considered their territory the center of the world, which has often misled the Chinese into historical distortions.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure how much credibility to give this, though, since the Times is paraphrasing Lee rather than quoting directly. Does anybody know his exact words? If he did state this, then it seems an inconsistency for him to urge the matter to be left to historians. Or was he perhaps implicitly admonishing China for not leaving the issue to historians?</p>
<p>What do the rest of you think? Should the Korean government take a strong line against China on this? They certainly would do so against Japan&#8217;s distortions of history.</p>
<p>Jeffery Hodges</p>
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		<title>By: The Marmot</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/#comment-1393</link>
		<dc:creator>The Marmot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=447#comment-1393</guid>
		<description>You're perfectly right, Alexandre, and I doubt the Korean-Chinese were smuggling those goods "out of concern for Chinese historical distortions."  I put it up there more because I find it extremely ironic that on the same day the Chinese execute some guys for smuggling Koguryo goods, Lee Chang-dong comes out and says the government won't get involved in the Koguryo issue.

I would never condone the smuggling of cultural and historical properties, under any circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re perfectly right, Alexandre, and I doubt the Korean-Chinese were smuggling those goods &#8220;out of concern for Chinese historical distortions.&#8221;  I put it up there more because I find it extremely ironic that on the same day the Chinese execute some guys for smuggling Koguryo goods, Lee Chang-dong comes out and says the government won&#8217;t get involved in the Koguryo issue.</p>
<p>I would never condone the smuggling of cultural and historical properties, under any circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexandre</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/09/koguryo-artifact-smugglers-executed-lee-chang-dong-is-a-wussy/#comment-1392</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexandre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=447#comment-1392</guid>
		<description>There may be a Koguryo element in the execution, but the Chinese are usually pretty serious about smuggling of antiques, and regularly execute people elesewhere in China for looting tombs and trying to get the stuff out.

So I don't know for this case, but it is not just an issue with Korea. And arguably, any government is responsible for the preservation of what is on its territory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There may be a Koguryo element in the execution, but the Chinese are usually pretty serious about smuggling of antiques, and regularly execute people elesewhere in China for looting tombs and trying to get the stuff out.</p>
<p>So I don&#8217;t know for this case, but it is not just an issue with Korea. And arguably, any government is responsible for the preservation of what is on its territory.</p>
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