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	<title>Comments on: No land for traitors!</title>
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	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/#comment-1216</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=410#comment-1216</guid>
		<description>Signs of desperation when being faced with the truth?

All signs point to yes...


PING:
TITLE: Chinese suzerainty over Korea in the late 19th century
BLOG NAME: Flying Yangban
I'm currently reading The Clash: U.S.-Japanese Relations Throughout History by Walter LaFeber. I've just gotten to the part which briefly goes over the Sino-Japanese war of 1894-95. That combined with some history pieces at the Marmot's Hole (on some K...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Signs of desperation when being faced with the truth?</p>
<p>All signs point to yes&#8230;</p>
<p>PING:<br />
TITLE: Chinese suzerainty over Korea in the late 19th century<br />
BLOG NAME: Flying Yangban<br />
I&#8217;m currently reading The Clash: U.S.-Japanese Relations Throughout History by Walter LaFeber. I&#8217;ve just gotten to the part which briefly goes over the Sino-Japanese war of 1894-95. That combined with some history pieces at the Marmot&#8217;s Hole (on some K&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: shawn</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/#comment-1215</link>
		<dc:creator>shawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=410#comment-1215</guid>
		<description>?????쨈???... ??흹 ?쨍??징흹?쨌쨍 ????????쨈 ????짠?????????째???쨈?????.. ?쨌쨍??쩌 2??쑣??쨈 ?째???쑩??흹 ?????흹?짹째 ?????쨍??째 ?짯?... 12


Hahahah...way to go, man. That guy's blog is lame. I like your new layout by the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>?????쨈???&#8230; ??흹 ?쨍??징흹?쨌쨍 ????????쨈 ????짠?????????째???쨈?????.. ?쨌쨍??쩌 2??쑣??쨈 ?째???쑩??흹 ?????흹?짹째 ?????쨍??째 ?짯?&#8230; 12</p>
<p>Hahahah&#8230;way to go, man. That guy&#8217;s blog is lame. I like your new layout by the way.</p>
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		<title>By: Ari(w)rong</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/#comment-1214</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari(w)rong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2003 05:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=410#comment-1214</guid>
		<description>"there is no truth" I say "there is no spoon."  Marmot I think Sally is messing with you/pulling your chain.  Sally's posts are pretty darn funny ... not be taken seriously, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;there is no truth&#8221; I say &#8220;there is no spoon.&#8221;  Marmot I think Sally is messing with you/pulling your chain.  Sally&#8217;s posts are pretty darn funny &#8230; not be taken seriously, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/#comment-1213</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2003 01:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=410#comment-1213</guid>
		<description>Mr. Mormon,

Ok, I take note of your grad. studies in Korea.
That explains how you have been left behind.

Your underlying assumptions speak of a bastardized Christianity that I call -- Progressianity.  Essentially, Christianity twisted into an Oprah Winfrey pantheism motivated by white guilt; and, mixed with white paternalism: the white-saviour complex.

You exude an optimism in the eventual enlightenment of others: all your "yellow-primitives" need is just a little more time and education: gently coached by Western values and the development of "correct institutions" -- such as a legal-rational culture.

You, therefore, claim the Asian preference for "self-esteem" over "truth" is an historical post-traumatic stress syndrome: Post-liberation political abuse through bad institutions and misrule.

You are a believer in the primacy of the institution molding human nature; not the quality of the individual's unique relation to his universe that takes place within the conscience. 

In other words, the Korean doesn't need to develop a "conscience" according to your bastardized Christianity-- he just needs to live esconced within a correct institution. Are you a Catholic?

You are quite the totalitarian.

You are essentially a humanist confused that he is a Christian. Quit your hypocrisy and come out of the humanist closet -- and embrace the truth openly: there is no truth, just self-esteem.

Silly Sally</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Mormon,</p>
<p>Ok, I take note of your grad. studies in Korea.<br />
That explains how you have been left behind.</p>
<p>Your underlying assumptions speak of a bastardized Christianity that I call &#8212; Progressianity.  Essentially, Christianity twisted into an Oprah Winfrey pantheism motivated by white guilt; and, mixed with white paternalism: the white-saviour complex.</p>
<p>You exude an optimism in the eventual enlightenment of others: all your &#8220;yellow-primitives&#8221; need is just a little more time and education: gently coached by Western values and the development of &#8220;correct institutions&#8221; &#8212; such as a legal-rational culture.</p>
<p>You, therefore, claim the Asian preference for &#8220;self-esteem&#8221; over &#8220;truth&#8221; is an historical post-traumatic stress syndrome: Post-liberation political abuse through bad institutions and misrule.</p>
<p>You are a believer in the primacy of the institution molding human nature; not the quality of the individual&#8217;s unique relation to his universe that takes place within the conscience. </p>
<p>In other words, the Korean doesn&#8217;t need to develop a &#8220;conscience&#8221; according to your bastardized Christianity&#8211; he just needs to live esconced within a correct institution. Are you a Catholic?</p>
<p>You are quite the totalitarian.</p>
<p>You are essentially a humanist confused that he is a Christian. Quit your hypocrisy and come out of the humanist closet &#8212; and embrace the truth openly: there is no truth, just self-esteem.</p>
<p>Silly Sally</p>
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		<title>By: The Marmot</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/#comment-1212</link>
		<dc:creator>The Marmot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=410#comment-1212</guid>
		<description>Interesting... you're the one who just characterized Koreans as being self-pitying, racist, "black holes of narcissistic rage," and I'm the racist.  If I didn't know better, I would have assumed you were Kevin at IA, because truth be told, so much of the rhetoric is surprisingly similar.  In your valiant efforts to defend Koreans against a "cultural holocaust," you've managed to attribute to them some rather nasty cultural values (oh, I'm sorry - not nasty, but different) in a manner which just smacks of Orientalism (as Edward Said defined it) and, ironically enough, colonial-era European academia.  Trust me, there are more than a few Koreans who are genuinely interested in finding "the truth."  The fact that they have generally been prevented from doing so is not so much due to culture as it is to political conditions in post-Liberation South Korea.  And like in many societies, those political conditions have been determined less by issues of "face" and "racial pride" than they have by the contingencies of power and money.

BTW, if it means anything to you (and I doubt it does), while I did my undergrad work in the States, I did my grad work in Korea.  I figured you might want to know that since you so pointedly refered to my education in the West.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting&#8230; you&#8217;re the one who just characterized Koreans as being self-pitying, racist, &#8220;black holes of narcissistic rage,&#8221; and I&#8217;m the racist.  If I didn&#8217;t know better, I would have assumed you were Kevin at IA, because truth be told, so much of the rhetoric is surprisingly similar.  In your valiant efforts to defend Koreans against a &#8220;cultural holocaust,&#8221; you&#8217;ve managed to attribute to them some rather nasty cultural values (oh, I&#8217;m sorry - not nasty, but different) in a manner which just smacks of Orientalism (as Edward Said defined it) and, ironically enough, colonial-era European academia.  Trust me, there are more than a few Koreans who are genuinely interested in finding &#8220;the truth.&#8221;  The fact that they have generally been prevented from doing so is not so much due to culture as it is to political conditions in post-Liberation South Korea.  And like in many societies, those political conditions have been determined less by issues of &#8220;face&#8221; and &#8220;racial pride&#8221; than they have by the contingencies of power and money.</p>
<p>BTW, if it means anything to you (and I doubt it does), while I did my undergrad work in the States, I did my grad work in Korea.  I figured you might want to know that since you so pointedly refered to my education in the West.</p>
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		<title>By: Silly Sally</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/#comment-1211</link>
		<dc:creator>Silly Sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=410#comment-1211</guid>
		<description>Rodent boy!

May I educate you in the ways of the mysterious East? I think I must, since your naivite is embarassing.

Get honest with themselves? Are you sillier than I am?

Both Japanese and Koreans are governed by the Asian principle of "face". This exotic and mysterious Eastern way is just another word for ethnic-narcissism.

Neither Korea nor Japan are interested in "getting honest with itself".  They are both shame societies, where self-esteem is a highly prized commodity and not to be easily squandered by "honesty" for the benefit of another race. 

This is the guiding ethos of both societies: the survival and gratification the race above all other values.

Both Koreans and Japanese know "group self-esteem" is a psychological neccessity for  healthy functioning as a society.

Loss of face for an Asian is literally physically debilitating: they experience loss of soul -- and wither away becoming sick and listless. Like the Australian aborigines' and American Indians' loss of soul when they lost their culture, way of life, and thus -- pride.

When they have a choice between "truth" or "self-esteem" -- they will choose the virtue conferring the greatest survival and gratification value.

Japan simply cannot afford to "fess up" to its past "sins".  Why? Because they would lose their necessary pride. Furthermore, they know the Chinese and Korean "grudge factor" is an insatiable rage; this rage ( Koreans call it Han) will never be quenched with concessions, compensations, and humility. Koreans are a black hole of narcissistic rage.

Likewise, Koreans don't need "self-esteem destroying truth".  They need to NOT be judged in their desperate attempts to maintain racial pride.

Haven't you learned anything, when you were educated in the West?

We have learned in the United States that what "victims" need more than anything is --MORE SELF-ESTEEM -- not, pride destroying facts.

Leave them alone.  I suggest you adjust your intolerant attitude, and re-align your energies towards compassion, love, and peace. That way you will not contribute to another spiritual holocaust
perpetuated against non-whites.



Silly Sally</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rodent boy!</p>
<p>May I educate you in the ways of the mysterious East? I think I must, since your naivite is embarassing.</p>
<p>Get honest with themselves? Are you sillier than I am?</p>
<p>Both Japanese and Koreans are governed by the Asian principle of &#8220;face&#8221;. This exotic and mysterious Eastern way is just another word for ethnic-narcissism.</p>
<p>Neither Korea nor Japan are interested in &#8220;getting honest with itself&#8221;.  They are both shame societies, where self-esteem is a highly prized commodity and not to be easily squandered by &#8220;honesty&#8221; for the benefit of another race. </p>
<p>This is the guiding ethos of both societies: the survival and gratification the race above all other values.</p>
<p>Both Koreans and Japanese know &#8220;group self-esteem&#8221; is a psychological neccessity for  healthy functioning as a society.</p>
<p>Loss of face for an Asian is literally physically debilitating: they experience loss of soul &#8212; and wither away becoming sick and listless. Like the Australian aborigines&#8217; and American Indians&#8217; loss of soul when they lost their culture, way of life, and thus &#8212; pride.</p>
<p>When they have a choice between &#8220;truth&#8221; or &#8220;self-esteem&#8221; &#8212; they will choose the virtue conferring the greatest survival and gratification value.</p>
<p>Japan simply cannot afford to &#8220;fess up&#8221; to its past &#8220;sins&#8221;.  Why? Because they would lose their necessary pride. Furthermore, they know the Chinese and Korean &#8220;grudge factor&#8221; is an insatiable rage; this rage ( Koreans call it Han) will never be quenched with concessions, compensations, and humility. Koreans are a black hole of narcissistic rage.</p>
<p>Likewise, Koreans don&#8217;t need &#8220;self-esteem destroying truth&#8221;.  They need to NOT be judged in their desperate attempts to maintain racial pride.</p>
<p>Haven&#8217;t you learned anything, when you were educated in the West?</p>
<p>We have learned in the United States that what &#8220;victims&#8221; need more than anything is &#8211;MORE SELF-ESTEEM &#8212; not, pride destroying facts.</p>
<p>Leave them alone.  I suggest you adjust your intolerant attitude, and re-align your energies towards compassion, love, and peace. That way you will not contribute to another spiritual holocaust<br />
perpetuated against non-whites.</p>
<p>Silly Sally</p>
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		<title>By: widerock</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/#comment-1210</link>
		<dc:creator>widerock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=410#comment-1210</guid>
		<description>I think that it is a good point to consider the situation after unification.
I agree that the ownership of real estate in North Korea will cause a big problem to the unified one Korea if South and North Korea would be re-unified under the present condition.
Before unification, there should be a great effort to establish the basic principle of treating this problem, including the prior investigation and law-making.
But, the real problem is that the power group of Korea is mainly composed of the decendents of landlords in the colonial period and don't want to take those measures.
Now, it's time for the ordinary citizens to do something powerful regarding this matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that it is a good point to consider the situation after unification.<br />
I agree that the ownership of real estate in North Korea will cause a big problem to the unified one Korea if South and North Korea would be re-unified under the present condition.<br />
Before unification, there should be a great effort to establish the basic principle of treating this problem, including the prior investigation and law-making.<br />
But, the real problem is that the power group of Korea is mainly composed of the decendents of landlords in the colonial period and don&#8217;t want to take those measures.<br />
Now, it&#8217;s time for the ordinary citizens to do something powerful regarding this matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Ari(w)rong</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/#comment-1209</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari(w)rong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=410#comment-1209</guid>
		<description>The government should go tell the families to stick it and turn the area into a park.  The Legislature really needs to pass a law saying that all land claims from before the Korean War are null and void.  First so that the city doesn't lose this golden opportunity to establish some much needed public green space in Seoul (as pictureseque as Samsung's and Hyundai's concrete boxes in the sky are ... I think Seoul has more than enough of them.)  

Second to head off the North Korean land claims that will come flooding in after re-unification.  North Koreans are going to have a hard enough time adjusting to life in the real-world without a bunch of Southern carpet baggers coming North to reclaim "their land."  What a disaster that's gonna be ... after tong-il, 90% of North Korean men are going to become day laborers and 90% of North Korean women are going to end up working in the "entertainment" industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The government should go tell the families to stick it and turn the area into a park.  The Legislature really needs to pass a law saying that all land claims from before the Korean War are null and void.  First so that the city doesn&#8217;t lose this golden opportunity to establish some much needed public green space in Seoul (as pictureseque as Samsung&#8217;s and Hyundai&#8217;s concrete boxes in the sky are &#8230; I think Seoul has more than enough of them.)  </p>
<p>Second to head off the North Korean land claims that will come flooding in after re-unification.  North Koreans are going to have a hard enough time adjusting to life in the real-world without a bunch of Southern carpet baggers coming North to reclaim &#8220;their land.&#8221;  What a disaster that&#8217;s gonna be &#8230; after tong-il, 90% of North Korean men are going to become day laborers and 90% of North Korean women are going to end up working in the &#8220;entertainment&#8221; industry.</p>
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		<title>By: The Marmot</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/#comment-1208</link>
		<dc:creator>The Marmot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2003 03:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=410#comment-1208</guid>
		<description>Very little argument with much of what you have to say, although I would point out that so much has changed since Liberation that trying to sort something like this out becomes a pretty complicated task - as Cumings points out, the biggest beneficiaries of the colonial period were probably Korean land owners, and many of their holdings were lost when the South Korean government enacted land reform measures (OK, refused to overturn land reform measures put in place by the occupying North Korean authorities) during the Korean War.  The other thing that worries is me is that I generally do not trust the Korean political sphere with properly handling this sort of thing, and as much as I like to bash Korean academics, they seem much more qualified to look into this matter than do the politicos, many of whom come from collaborationist families in any case.

One last thing, and perhaps this is unfair because it deals with a hypothetical situation, is that I doubt very highly that the Hani and OhMyNews would support similar measures against those who collaborated with the Korean Workers Party - in both North and South Korea - following unification.  Now, of couse, the Chosun and Dong-A are equally guilty of hypocracy here - they'd love nothing more than to fry Communist collaborators (like Song Du-yul) but avoid going after pro-Japanese collaborators like its the plague - but I'm just pointing out that it's not a case of unilateral hypocracy on the part of the Korean right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very little argument with much of what you have to say, although I would point out that so much has changed since Liberation that trying to sort something like this out becomes a pretty complicated task - as Cumings points out, the biggest beneficiaries of the colonial period were probably Korean land owners, and many of their holdings were lost when the South Korean government enacted land reform measures (OK, refused to overturn land reform measures put in place by the occupying North Korean authorities) during the Korean War.  The other thing that worries is me is that I generally do not trust the Korean political sphere with properly handling this sort of thing, and as much as I like to bash Korean academics, they seem much more qualified to look into this matter than do the politicos, many of whom come from collaborationist families in any case.</p>
<p>One last thing, and perhaps this is unfair because it deals with a hypothetical situation, is that I doubt very highly that the Hani and OhMyNews would support similar measures against those who collaborated with the Korean Workers Party - in both North and South Korea - following unification.  Now, of couse, the Chosun and Dong-A are equally guilty of hypocracy here - they&#8217;d love nothing more than to fry Communist collaborators (like Song Du-yul) but avoid going after pro-Japanese collaborators like its the plague - but I&#8217;m just pointing out that it&#8217;s not a case of unilateral hypocracy on the part of the Korean right.</p>
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		<title>By: oranckay</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/25/no-land-for-traitors/#comment-1207</link>
		<dc:creator>oranckay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2003 02:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=410#comment-1207</guid>
		<description>There certainly are lots of fuzzy areas in colonial history, and much about that period is as painful to admit now as it was painful to endure then - a lot more people at least went along with Japanese administration than one would like to think. 

One will not hear the Chosun or the DongA mention this development in any big way, because the owning families of both didn't hold back much when it came to collaboration with the Japanese.

Still, the cases of Yi Wan-yong and Song Byeong-jun are about as clear as can be. Both were as guilty of treason as anyone, anywhere. 

Different countries at different times in modern history have seized property, frozen assets, etc, to correct similar wrongs. One of the reasons many Koreans are still appear oversensitive about these things is because these wrongs were never properly dealt with, and doing so is only recently becoming possible. Even if when all is said and done it is decided that no action can or will be taken, it is still right and reasonable to try. 

Still, I imagine that in regards to this case as well, many a foreign observer will belittle any move to take action on this as typically childish nationalism, and do so in a manner no less predictable of that kind of foreigner than the cases in Korean society that truly are examples of that kind of nationalism. 

I suppose one could argue that it speaks well of Japanese colonial administration that those two traitors were granted such positions, but even if it does, that is another matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There certainly are lots of fuzzy areas in colonial history, and much about that period is as painful to admit now as it was painful to endure then - a lot more people at least went along with Japanese administration than one would like to think. </p>
<p>One will not hear the Chosun or the DongA mention this development in any big way, because the owning families of both didn&#8217;t hold back much when it came to collaboration with the Japanese.</p>
<p>Still, the cases of Yi Wan-yong and Song Byeong-jun are about as clear as can be. Both were as guilty of treason as anyone, anywhere. </p>
<p>Different countries at different times in modern history have seized property, frozen assets, etc, to correct similar wrongs. One of the reasons many Koreans are still appear oversensitive about these things is because these wrongs were never properly dealt with, and doing so is only recently becoming possible. Even if when all is said and done it is decided that no action can or will be taken, it is still right and reasonable to try. </p>
<p>Still, I imagine that in regards to this case as well, many a foreign observer will belittle any move to take action on this as typically childish nationalism, and do so in a manner no less predictable of that kind of foreigner than the cases in Korean society that truly are examples of that kind of nationalism. </p>
<p>I suppose one could argue that it speaks well of Japanese colonial administration that those two traitors were granted such positions, but even if it does, that is another matter.</p>
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