Comments on: Sign your name and keep Koguryo Korean! http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/ Korea... in Blog Format Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:58:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: lost in the balkans http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/#comment-1179 lost in the balkans Tue, 08 Jun 2004 11:37:40 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=405#comment-1179 listen, guys,,,,, if you look at any continent in the world, boundaries change, new populations arrive and leave, and new/existing identities new/existing culture flourishes and grows,,,,, there are of course, political factors involved by china, and of course this can be any large country that wishes to claim any field of interest, ie history etc,,,,,,to make their presence known,,,,, but the truth is known that koguryo was ethnically close,or perhaps even the same group of families that roamed the siberian plains that formed present day korea,,,,, the this can be viewed with the similiarities in languages(altaic group language) as well as the cognates it shares between the altaic tribes that were once recognized in Manchuria, Korea, Mongolia, turkish etc,,,Yes, languages change and adopt new vocabulary by their neighbors korea did from china like turkish did from arabic and persian also, i also want to add that there is no " claiming " involved except from countries that need to "claim" something,,,,,, i do not think the koreans or the nation needs to claim koguryo as their "history" or lineage,,,,,,, it is a known fact,,,,,, listen, guys,,,,,
if you look at any continent in the world, boundaries change, new populations arrive and leave, and new/existing identities new/existing culture flourishes and grows,,,,,

there are of course, political factors involved by china, and of course this can be any large country that wishes to claim any field of interest, ie history etc,,,,,,to make their presence known,,,,,

but the truth is known that koguryo was ethnically close,or perhaps even the same group of families that roamed the siberian plains that formed present day korea,,,,, the this can be viewed with the similiarities in languages(altaic group language) as well as the cognates it shares between the altaic tribes that were once recognized in Manchuria, Korea, Mongolia, turkish etc,,,Yes, languages change and adopt new vocabulary by their neighbors korea did from china like turkish did from arabic and persian

also, i also want to add that there is no ” claiming ” involved except from countries that need to “claim” something,,,,,, i do not think the koreans or the nation needs to claim koguryo as their “history” or lineage,,,,,,, it is a known fact,,,,,,

]]> By: lost in the balkans http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/#comment-1178 lost in the balkans Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:58:07 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=405#comment-1178 listen, guys,,,,, if you look at any continent in the world, boundaries change, new populations arrive and leave, and new/existing identities new/existing culture flourishes and grows,,,,, there are of course, political factors involved by china, and of course this can be any large country that wishes to claim any field of interest, ie history etc,,,,,,to make their presence known,,,,, but the truth is known that koguryo was ethnically close,or perhaps even the same group of families that roamed the siberian plains that formed present day korea,,,,, the this can be viewed with the similiarities in languages(altaic group language) as well as the cognates it shares between the altaic tribes that were once recognized in Manchuria, Korea, Mongolia, turkish etc,,,Yes, languages change and adopt new vocabulary by their neighbors korea did from china like turkish did from arabic and persian listen, guys,,,,,
if you look at any continent in the world, boundaries change, new populations arrive and leave, and new/existing identities new/existing culture flourishes and grows,,,,,

there are of course, political factors involved by china, and of course this can be any large country that wishes to claim any field of interest, ie history etc,,,,,,to make their presence known,,,,,

but the truth is known that koguryo was ethnically close,or perhaps even the same group of families that roamed the siberian plains that formed present day korea,,,,, the this can be viewed with the similiarities in languages(altaic group language) as well as the cognates it shares between the altaic tribes that were once recognized in Manchuria, Korea, Mongolia, turkish etc,,,Yes, languages change and adopt new vocabulary by their neighbors korea did from china like turkish did from arabic and persian

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/#comment-1177 Anonymous Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:52:33 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=405#comment-1177 This is an example of the molesting of smaller nations by larger ones. Its just a plain fact, thought it is legitimized and rationalized by every contrived viewpoint and excuse possible. Koguyro is definitely(speaking from an honest person) more korean than china and it definitely had ties with the people of korea. The argument that korguryo is not exactly chinese or korean in modern comparison is outright dull. The koreans today are descendents of koguryo whether their is major cultural change after the loss of this territory. Should an adopted child believe there are no genetic ties to their biologic parent because they are raised by another? If north korea ever became absorbed completly into china and under the chinese umbrella, it would still be false to claim that north korea was always 'chinese'. This is the same fallacious argument. Korguryo (at that time) was korean though this territory was lost. "It's not a rag-tag band of renegade historians, it's an entire historical institution embarking on a government-backed project costing $2.5 billion. It's more than just a claim, it's a massive undertaking to forever rewrite history in the way they see fit. I seriously don't understand how Koguryo could be seen as being so important to the PRC, but for us, if our claims on Koguryo's history are lost, our national identity will be put in crisis, as Koguryo is widely regarded by Koreans as the foundation of Korean culture and heritage. But SK government has been reluctant to take any action due to economic ties with the PRC. China doesn't need us, but WE desperately need THEM. South Korea's trade surplus with China has exceeded $15 billion annually, our government simply isn't willing to give that up for something as "trivial" (as they see it) as ancient history." This is an example of the molesting of smaller nations by larger ones. Its just a plain fact, thought it is legitimized and rationalized by every contrived viewpoint and excuse possible. Koguyro is definitely(speaking from an honest person) more korean than china and it definitely had ties with the people of korea. The argument that korguryo is not exactly chinese or korean in modern comparison is outright dull. The koreans today are descendents of koguryo whether their is major cultural change after the loss of this territory. Should an adopted child believe there are no genetic ties to their biologic parent because they are raised by another? If north korea ever became absorbed completly into china and under the chinese umbrella, it would still be false to claim that north korea was always ‘chinese’. This is the same fallacious argument. Korguryo (at that time) was korean though this territory was lost.

“It’s not a rag-tag band of renegade historians, it’s an entire historical institution embarking on a government-backed project costing $2.5 billion. It’s more than just a claim, it’s a massive undertaking to forever rewrite history in the way they see fit. I seriously don’t understand how Koguryo could be seen as being so important to the PRC, but for us, if our claims on Koguryo’s history are lost, our national identity will be put in crisis, as Koguryo is widely regarded by Koreans as the foundation of Korean culture and heritage. But SK government has been reluctant to take any action due to economic ties with the PRC. China doesn’t need us, but WE desperately need THEM. South Korea’s trade surplus with China has exceeded $15 billion annually, our government simply isn’t willing to give that up for something as “trivial” (as they see it) as ancient history.”

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/#comment-1176 Anonymous Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:32:57 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=405#comment-1176 I understand china is large and has more resources but thats really the only reason china has an advantage. "Chinese" have always been docile and pushover weaklings. Those responsible for extending china's borders were not chinese but the asians that were are similar to korean stock. I see evidence of their negative stereotyping in america and it is based off of the chinese. Why do they think they encompass every talent and ability falsely? The stupidity and blind spots of political ego. Whats funny to me is how korea can rile up so many while others consistently are condescending to it. If korea was stronger and not divided, asia would be stronger. Unfortunately, the idiot masses from all three northeast nations do not recognize or care about this. I understand china is large and has more resources but thats really the only reason china has an advantage. “Chinese” have always been docile and pushover weaklings. Those responsible for extending china’s borders were not chinese but the asians that were are similar to korean stock. I see evidence of their negative stereotyping in america and it is based off of the chinese. Why do they think they encompass every talent and ability falsely? The stupidity and blind spots of political ego. Whats funny to me is how korea can rile up so many while others consistently are condescending to it. If korea was stronger and not divided, asia would be stronger. Unfortunately, the idiot masses from all three northeast nations do not recognize or care about this.

]]> By: Michael http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/#comment-1175 Michael Fri, 30 Apr 2004 01:34:01 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=405#comment-1175 Hey all, "Chinese" is a fluid nationality. An anonymous poster stated that Chinese had been humiliated from day one -- but who had been humiliated from day one? The Han people? There hasn't been such a thing as "Han" for many centuries, because the "foreign" groups mixed with the Han people since a long time ago. The "Han" Chinese people today probably have as much Han blood in them as, say, Toba Xianbei blood. The poster's choice of "natives" being Chinese and the Khitans, Jurchens, etc, as not, is an arbitrary choice, as arbitrary as the Chinese supermacists' claims. And in fact, there is no native Chinese at all, if humanity became in Africa, then lineage in China was at one point some form of immigrant and invader. I believe that we Chinese need to recognize Kokuryo history and its impact to the later Korean culture. Nobody can claim history: Kokuryo belongs to Kokuryo, not Chinese or Korean. If you believe that your ancestor is from Kokuryo, then its history is yours. If you believe that many Koreans can trace lineage back to Kokuryo, then its history is theirs. But can you deny this to the Manchurians who identify themselves as Chinese? I haven't heard much from Chinese government trying to claim Kokuryo history, but I'm not denying it (I just don't know enough about it.) Let's all be careful about thinking about history. All the talk about "pure blood," "pure ethnicity," "glorious history," "exclusive rights" can easily lead to the same kind of stuff that came out of Nazist eugenics. Peace, Michael 4-29-2004 Hey all,

“Chinese” is a fluid nationality. An anonymous poster stated that Chinese had been humiliated from day one — but who had been humiliated from day one? The Han people? There hasn’t been such a thing as “Han” for many centuries, because the “foreign” groups mixed with the Han people since a long time ago. The “Han” Chinese people today probably have as much Han blood in them as, say, Toba Xianbei blood. The poster’s choice of “natives” being Chinese and the Khitans, Jurchens, etc, as not, is an arbitrary choice, as arbitrary as the Chinese supermacists’ claims.

And in fact, there is no native Chinese at all, if humanity became in Africa, then lineage in China was at one point some form of immigrant and invader.

I believe that we Chinese need to recognize Kokuryo history and its impact to the later Korean culture. Nobody can claim history: Kokuryo belongs to Kokuryo, not Chinese or Korean. If you believe that your ancestor is from Kokuryo, then its history is yours. If you believe that many Koreans can trace lineage back to Kokuryo, then its history is theirs. But can you deny this to the Manchurians who identify themselves as Chinese?

I haven’t heard much from Chinese government trying to claim Kokuryo history, but I’m not denying it (I just don’t know enough about it.)

Let’s all be careful about thinking about history. All the talk about “pure blood,” “pure ethnicity,” “glorious history,” “exclusive rights” can easily lead to the same kind of stuff that came out of Nazist eugenics.

Peace,

Michael

4-29-2004

]]> By: John Yu http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/#comment-1174 John Yu Sun, 25 Apr 2004 04:24:47 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=405#comment-1174 I think Korguyo can be a part of both Korean and Chinese history since the country spanned the modern borders of both Korea and China. I don't think it's a mutually exclusive concept with one country necessarily having sole rights. To draw a parallel, all the Southwestern states of the United States, such as California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are part of both American and Mexican (and even Spanish) history since at one time, they were ruled by Mexico but now, are within the borders of the United States. Similarly, the once independent Duchy of Burgundy is now considered part of both modern French and German history since it's territorial holdings span the modern borders of both countries. So, when you study the history of the Manchuria region, currently a physical part of China, I think it's valid to include all of the former periods, even when parts of it was ruled by a different country. If you look at China today, it includes the territories of so many heterogenious populations that once formed independent political entities, such as the Liao, Xixia, Jin, Bohai (Parhae), Mongolia, Dali, Khotan, Tibet, Korguyo, Northern Wei, etc., which were viewed as wholly independent countries at the time of their existence but now are either partially or entirely within Chinese borders. In terms of Korea claiming exclusive rights to Korguyo and Bohai (Parhae), the same problem arises on the Korean side, since Silla considered and dealt with Korguyo and Bohai as separate entities from itself. There was no common consciousness at the time of their existance that they were all part of the same country. Thus, I think it's valid to say that Korguyo belongs to both Korean and Chinese history rather than exclusively to one or the other. I think Korguyo can be a part of both Korean and Chinese history since the country spanned the modern borders of both Korea and China. I don’t think it’s a mutually exclusive concept with one country necessarily having sole rights.

To draw a parallel, all the Southwestern states of the United States, such as California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are part of both American and Mexican (and even Spanish) history since at one time, they were ruled by Mexico but now, are within the borders of the United States. Similarly, the once independent Duchy of Burgundy is now considered part of both modern French and German history since it’s territorial holdings span the modern borders of both countries.

So, when you study the history of the Manchuria region, currently a physical part of China, I think it’s valid to include all of the former periods, even when parts of it was ruled by a different country.

If you look at China today, it includes the territories of so many heterogenious populations that once formed independent political entities, such as the Liao, Xixia, Jin, Bohai (Parhae), Mongolia, Dali, Khotan, Tibet, Korguyo, Northern Wei, etc., which were viewed as wholly independent countries at the time of their existence but now are either partially or entirely within Chinese borders.

In terms of Korea claiming exclusive rights to Korguyo and Bohai (Parhae), the same problem arises on the Korean side, since Silla considered and dealt with Korguyo and Bohai as separate entities from itself. There was no common consciousness at the time of their existance that they were all part of the same country.

Thus, I think it’s valid to say that Korguyo belongs to both Korean and Chinese history rather than exclusively to one or the other.

]]> By: Han http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/#comment-1173 Han Thu, 08 Apr 2004 22:08:54 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=405#comment-1173 How are you going to talk about China's issues with Tibet and Taiwan, when Koreans have their own problems. Take a look at a map when you get the chance. Try finding an English map, as the Korean maps seem to disregard international boundaries between North and South. Tianenman Square? People aren't starving in China. Tibet? If I remember correctly, S. Korea didn't exactly have benevolent leaders post-Korean War. Taiwan? How much blood has been shed between the Mainland and Taiwan? Unlike Koreans, we don't shoot our own "brethren." Real quick, how many times did u fire across the DMZ, or rely on Americans to settle disputes by placing them in harm's way, while complaining about every little thing that happens. Ungrateful. How are you going to talk about China’s issues with Tibet and Taiwan, when Koreans have their own problems. Take a look at a map when you get the chance. Try finding an English map, as the Korean maps seem to disregard international boundaries between North and South.

Tianenman Square? People aren’t starving in China.

Tibet? If I remember correctly, S. Korea didn’t exactly have benevolent leaders post-Korean War.

Taiwan? How much blood has been shed between the Mainland and Taiwan? Unlike Koreans, we don’t shoot our own “brethren.” Real quick, how many times did u fire across the DMZ, or rely on Americans to settle disputes by placing them in harm’s way, while complaining about every little thing that happens. Ungrateful.

]]> By: Sugar Shin http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/#comment-1172 Sugar Shin Wed, 07 Apr 2004 00:33:36 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=405#comment-1172 Brave Mr. anonymous! "Sign your name and cross my heart (kiss my butt?)." - Terence Trent D'arby Brave Mr. anonymous!

“Sign your name and cross my heart (kiss my butt?).” - Terence Trent D’arby

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/#comment-1171 Anonymous Tue, 06 Apr 2004 14:56:14 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=405#comment-1171 Wow, great comeback. This whole thing started with some shitheads insulting the Chinese for funding archaelogical studies on their OWN land. For the Koreans didn't object to their own "brethrens" comments, these retaliatory remarks were obviously aimed at you as well. But it's obvious Communist China doesn't care too much for Korean protests. If there was some "biting" to come out of a Chinese-Korean conflict, I'm sure we will all know the result. I'm sure you would rather not think of the consequences of employee uprisings by the Chaebol when Samsung, LG, Hyundai are end up being subsidiaries of the Chinese Commmunist Party. Wow, great comeback. This whole thing started with some shitheads insulting the Chinese for funding archaelogical studies on their OWN land. For the Koreans didn’t object to their own “brethrens” comments, these retaliatory remarks were obviously aimed at you as well. But it’s obvious Communist China doesn’t care too much for Korean protests. If there was some
“biting” to come out of a Chinese-Korean conflict, I’m sure we will all know the result. I’m sure you would rather not think of the consequences of employee uprisings by the Chaebol when Samsung, LG, Hyundai are end up being subsidiaries of the Chinese Commmunist Party.

]]> By: sugar shin http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/12/23/sign-your-name-and-keep-koguryo-korean/#comment-1170 sugar shin Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:52:19 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=405#comment-1170 China Rules, "Zhong Guo domination!"... over what, the Seven Seas? Are you proud to have lunched Tibet? To have gunned down your own children 1989 at T?쨈iennamin Square? Or to frightening your Taiwanese brethren? Listen Ruler, I have no doubt about the greatness & glory of the civilization and culture the Chinese have been able to built throughout her history(and the ancient Koreans have borrowed heavily). Further I don?쨈t doubt, that you have been und will be the future the biggest boy here in this district called NE Asia, besides the US friends, because they are the strongest boys in town - no doubt about that. Yes, Korea is small and divided, but if you come here for a pissing contest, we little (but very pissed off) Koreans will bite off your family jewels. Would it be worth it? NO! BTW, this dog-metaphor was not very clever - don?쨈t you know, that Koreans eat dogmeat... China Rules,

“Zhong Guo domination!”… over what, the Seven Seas? Are you proud to have lunched Tibet? To have gunned down your own children 1989 at T?쨈iennamin Square? Or to frightening your Taiwanese brethren?

Listen Ruler, I have no doubt about the greatness & glory of the civilization and culture the Chinese have been able to built throughout her history(and the ancient Koreans have borrowed heavily). Further I don?쨈t doubt, that you have been und will be the future the biggest boy here in this district called NE Asia, besides the US friends, because they are the strongest boys in town - no doubt about that.

Yes, Korea is small and divided, but if you come here for a pissing contest, we little (but very pissed off) Koreans will bite off your family jewels. Would it be worth it? NO!

BTW, this dog-metaphor was not very clever - don?쨈t you know, that Koreans eat dogmeat…

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