Courtesy the English edition of the Dong-A Ilbo:
The civil regiment of Identification/Knowledge of Our History held a press conference on December 22 at the Zelkova Tree Cafe in Anguk-dong Jongro-gu, Seoul and announced that it was launching a campaign for 100,000 signatures to hinder China’s falsification of the Kokuryo history.
The civil regiment stated that “China should immediately cease operations to alter the history of Kokuryo as one belonging to China’s neighbor. Kokuryo inherited the orthodoxy (I think they meant legitimacy/lineage) of Old-Choson, the first country of the Korean race.
The civil regiment pointed out that “China is falsifying the history of Northeast Asian countries as an expansion of the history of the Han (Chinese) race. Through the principle of ‘unified multi-ethnicity’ China has been interpreting the history of Kokuryo as well as those of Old-Chosun’s and Balhae’s in a wayward manner.”
The civil regiment added that “China should voluntarily recognize that it has experienced its own wave of wayward falsification of textbooks on three occasions regarding the historical view of Japanese colonization and imperialism of the past.”
Now, the odd thing is that whoever translated this for the Dong-A left off the end of the original Korean language piece, which reads:
The group stressed that if Koguryo history is incorporated into Chinese history, as the Chinese assert, all of Korea north of the Han River will be absorbed into China (at its height, Koguryo’s boundaries roughly ran from the Han River in the south to southern Manchuria in the north), and we will be left with little more than 2000 years of history, shorter than that of even Japan. It also stressed that the government must mobilize diplomatic measure to block the Chinese plot to distort Korean history.
The group plans to conduct its signature campaign to the end of this month and then hand its list of signatures to the Chinese Embassy in Seoul.
The last thing anyone wants is to get stuck behind Japan in a Confucian member-measuring contest.
PS: Map ripped off from here.
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35 Comments
So an east Asian nation’s prestige is measured more by the chapters in its history than by the quality of the chapter it is writing?
How much land is involved here? How many people live there?
East Asian history has plenty of quality as well an quantity - it’s only recently that the West has outstripped East Asia (and in particular, China) to become the world’s wealthiest and most powerful societies. As far as the feuding over who’s history is older, well, it’s just that for some people, length really is important, especially relative length vis-a-vis their immediate neighbors. Another thing to remember is that a lot of this gets intertwined with festering geopolitical issues and lend themselves easily to demagoguery, which is why issues like you see in the post often times become important in the end.
East Asian history has plenty of quality as well an quantity - it’s only recently that the West has outstripped East Asia (and in particular, China) to become the world’s wealthiest and most powerful societies.
I’m not sure this view is correct, although it’s the one that Asians have. Based on the extreme poverty I have seen in China, my feeling is that in the past, the top strata of Asian society was able to extract considerable amounts from the populace in order to immerse themselves in luxury. The abundance of expensive trinkets in imperial palaces may have given the impression of relative advancement, but just as Shanghai has the shiniest collection of skyscrapers around, but remains a Third World city, all of it was an illusion supported by confiscatory levies on Asian peasants. Oriental luxury was simply indicative of the coercive powers of Oriental despots, not any particular advancement.
Based on the extreme poverty I have seen in China, my feeling is that in the past, the top strata of Asian society was able to extract considerable amounts from the populace in order to immerse themselves in luxury.
No argument there; I only wish to add that for much of its history, the West was really no different, only poorer.
I think the Chinese are trying to do what the Japanese did a 100 years ago. That’s kinda sad. I agree with your comments that the muli- China policy is to expand on the Han race.
We should try to look at things more objectively.
i do not konw
It is a measure of how pathetic china and chinese are that there are chinese hacts out there trying to claim history that is universally recognized by any legitimate historian, any third grader: Korguro is in every way, shape and form Korean and also will be.
Even among reputable chinese historians, the fact that Korguro is Korean is above dispute, not even a question. But then there are those chinese including the self serving, rabble rousing communists in government whose only justification for existence is inventing history that never was, or will ever be, no matter the gobblygook spewing from there frothy fangs.
But what solace is there for a mish mash of people calling themselves chinese who been repeatedly conquered, humilated from day one, whether by nomadic Turks, Khitans, Jurchens, Mongols, Manchus, Japanese, Russians, Americans, etc.
Even their vaulted, modelled, “native” chinese dynasty, the “han”, “tang”, were anything but native. Both dynasties have indisputable Turkic orgin, who took over the docile and imbecilic natives. No “native” chinese dynasty every broke out of the yanghze river valley. Every territorial expanision of china is wholly due to non-chinese conquerors.
How pathetic is that? Very pathetic.
But hacks are hacks, illegitimate and utterly transparent. Like dung flies, they and their looney rantings deserve nothing better than to be tossed into the stinking sewer of discredited history.
Setting the truth straight.
China is trying the same the Japanese did before (during and after) the occupation of Korea. A huge campaign to falsify history. Why should they do that? Very simple. When the North Korean government destabilises the Chinese will “reclaim” “their” territory and march on Pyongyang. As de facto “liberators” and a “stabilising force”. This scenario is not new to history between China and Korea. Until that happens the Chinese will have made their Koguryo claim at the UNESCO and no one would really do anything about it since trade relations with China will be too important. Reminds me a little bit of Taiwan when every nation including Korea renounced relations with Taiwan for good trade relations with China. Conclusion: Even if the North Korean government falters and unification could become true it will simply not happen due to the Chinese idea of stability in this area. Except of course North and South Korea find common measures to protect the northern border. It is quite obvious that China neither changed the attitude to its role in the area nor the methods it is enforcing it since the Qin dinasty.
how are we sopposed to trust them, we and the rest of the world knows that china has a history of falacys and Koguryo is korean history
Well, I came in here to read up and get a better understanding on this issue. But now, I’m pretty amazed at the level of intelligence of the people that give a shit about this debate.
Quite frankly, I don’t understand the big deal. What exactly is wrong with saying that the Koguryo are part of the history of the Chinese as well? Evolutionary theory already shows that the first man in Asia was near Beijing. So, I don’t understand the debate, espcially considering the language, writing, dress, and food of the Koguryo were so closely related to the Chinese of that time, it’s pretty obvious the Koguryo were “Chinese” tribes that migrated north.
As for Marmot, you made a great point that the Chinese luxuries were paid for by the labors of the peasants. I’m sure in Ancient Korea, the aristocracy toiled in the fields and farms themselves to enjoy those luxuries imported from China. And for ur refute of the fact that the Chinese were the most powerful and wealthiest of Asian civilizations, I suggest you buy a globe, and spin it around, and acquaint yourself to the part that says “ASIA.”
As for your statement of calling Shanghai a 3rd World City? Well, I have been to Shanghai, Tokyo, marjor cities in North America and Europe, as well as Seoul. I don’t quite understand your perspective; especially considering that half of Korea is communist as well, and emerged in even deeper poverty. I never saw people starving to death in Shanghai. If Shanghai was 3rd world, I’d really like to know where you rank Pyongyang. Then again, you can’t even go there. And saying the skyscrapers are built on the backs of peasants really shows your intelligence. Once again, the aristocracy of Korea have managed to build their own skyscrapers.
And if have such a problem with the Chinese, petition your government to ban all diplomatic contact and more specifically, all trade with China, just like it has done with Taiwan. How do you think Korea can be so wealthy today, whereas 5 years ago, Korean products were considered garbage anywhere outside of Central America, and Africa (real sophisticated clientele), that even Koreans perferred Japanese and European products. It’s because the “peasants” of China have allowed Korean industries to manufacture in China much more freely than the Japs. So, in fact, South Korea needs China even more than say North Korea. Next time you decide to talk about the “trinkets” of the Chinese, think about what exactly Korea provides to the world. Second-rate cars and electronics from a nation that had a 50 year start on capitalism. If you want to know what the Chinese have provided, just take a close look at the military arsenal of your brethren in Pyongyang, ready to pounce on your ass anyday now.
As for the coward that refused to leave a name, but decided to open his fat mouth about how “pathetic” the Chinese, I think you need to look at the bullshit you just wrote, and go fuck urself. For all the words you put down, what the fuck was your point exactly? You have a problem with the Chinese, I suggest you head down to your nearest Chinatown, and do some damage with that Tae-Kwon-Do skill you’ve been mastering.
And to say that the Chinese were weak and constantly conquered, I think you are pretty retarded, considering the role of Korea being Japan’s bitch during WWII. The only reason the Japs could get into Manchuria is Korea welcomed them with open arms, and supplied plenty of food and women for their soldiers.
And when you talk about the Chinese dynasties having “indisputable Turkish Origin,” get this, the Korean dynasties have “indisputable Chinese Origin.” So what pisses you off more now? There was no Korea 1500 year ago. If your need to pat yourself on the back of having a deep history by gathering those of multiple ancient kingdoms, great for you. It’s funny how you can be offended that China is doing the same thing.
Above comment was mistakenly directed at Marmot. It was more for the dickhead calling himself Zhang Fei.
Quite frankly, I don’t understand the big deal. What exactly is wrong with saying that the Koguryo are part of the history of the Chinese as well? Evolutionary theory already shows that the first man in Asia was near Beijing.
–> No. You are referring to discoveries of bones around Beijing. Evolutionary theory actually shows asian peoples developed their distinct racial features by evolving in the harsh colds of northern asia, i.e. north of China. Get your facts straight and also learn to distinguish between empirical evidence and conjectured theories.
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So, I don’t understand the debate, espcially considering the language, writing, dress, and food of the Koguryo were so closely related to the Chinese of that time, it’s pretty obvious the Koguryo were “Chinese” tribes that migrated north.
–> Persians use Arabic script and Germans use ones derived from Latin. In fact Koreans of Shilla and Paekje (and the Japanese also) used Chinese script before developing their own variations. And Jurchens and Khitans develped their own variations of Chinese script. Ditto for Koguryo. Since when is borrowing a script an allowance for inferring that the borrowers are the same as those from whom they borrowed?
Also, the language is related to Chinese? I have yet to see a single scholar, be he (she) Korean, Japanese, or Western classifying the Koguryo language as part of the Sino-Tibetan language group. Are you so ignorant of liguistics to not know that the vast majority of the languages of north asia are actually from the Altaic language group, which is not a whit related to Chinese except for the borrowing of Chinese vocabulary?
Dress? I suggest you look at some old paintings of gatherings of ambassadors from the various countries around T’ang China. Modern scholars can discern Koguryo diplomats by their dress which is as unique from Chinese dress as those of Uighur Turks. (On a related note, I can admit that some features of dress are Chinese influenced without making the inference that those dressed in such a fashion are Chinese. That would be as idiotic as saying that since wearing pants were developed by horse-riding nomads that Chinese are actually Hsiung-nu or that Westerners are Asians.)
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As for Marmot, you made a great point that the Chinese luxuries were paid for by the labors of the peasants. I’m sure in Ancient Korea, the aristocracy toiled in the fields and farms themselves to enjoy those luxuries imported from China.
–> What is your point here? Nobody disputed (and Marmot in fact emphasized) that all societies were developed on the back-breaking labor of the commoners and peasants? Are you so offended by any criticism of China that you have to react so defensively with the most negative interpretation of the other’s statements?
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And for ur refute of the fact that the Chinese were the most powerful and wealthiest of Asian civilizations, I suggest you buy a globe, and spin it around, and acquaint yourself to the part that says “ASIA.”
–> This is really funny. So it comes down to this? Pride by way of a penis-measuring contest? Is this befitting a defender of a great civilization? Do you think you do your country an honor by such childishness? I actually believe China is a great civilization but am often upset by such arrogance which would leave all other countries as mere dots surrounding the circumference of the Middle Kingdom.
But let’s not dwell on my being offended and look at the facts. The current size of China was achieved by the Manchus who happen to be Altaic speaking ethnic relatives of the Mongols and the Koreans.
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As for your statement of calling Shanghai a 3rd World City? Well, I have been to Shanghai, Tokyo, marjor cities in North America and Europe, as well as Seoul. I don’t quite understand your perspective; especially considering that half of Korea is communist as well, and emerged in even deeper poverty. I never saw people starving to death in Shanghai. If Shanghai was 3rd world, I’d really like to know where you rank Pyongyang. Then again, you can’t even go there. And saying the skyscrapers are built on the backs of peasants really shows your intelligence. Once again, the aristocracy of Korea have managed to build their own skyscrapers.
–> Again you display a touchy defensiveness unbefitting a great power like China, not to mention failing to read passages correctly. First of all, although I have not been to Shanghai and cannot comment on it, is it so wrong for someone who was there to make such comments pointing out that the stunning skyline of Shanghai may not be the entire picture? Korea is a major economic power but I have no problem with someone saying that the jaebul system is an outdated relic that needs to be restructured to compete in the 21st century. I can also accept that despite the modern outward flashiness of much of Korea it is decades behind the West in terms of things like a social net and that this actually means, yes, we are indeed behind the US, other English speaking countries, and Western Europe. I can accept and try to catch up, as Korea has done with various degrees of success.
And why bring up Pyongyang? Did anybody say that Shanghai is as bad North Korea? Is saying that Shanghai may have elements of the third world (which is not at all offensive since China got a late start and I certainly don’t expect it to be upto the standards of Tokyo so soon, while fully allowing that one day it may indeed surpass Tokyo) the same as saying it is a basketcase?
And who said Shanghai was built on the back of peasants? Go up and read it again. He brought up Shanghai to make a point using the following dichotomies: Shanghai vs. third world elements on the one hand and the ancient splendor of China vs. the suffering of the peasants that made such splendor possible on the other hand.
Instead of berating others for stupidity you should have enough respect to read carefully
the comments of those you criticize.
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And if have such a problem with the Chinese, petition your government to ban all diplomatic contact and more specifically, all trade with China, just like it has done with Taiwan. How do you think Korea can be so wealthy today, whereas 5 years ago, Korean products were considered garbage anywhere outside of Central America, and Africa (real sophisticated clientele), that even Koreans perferred Japanese and European products. It’s because the “peasants” of China have allowed Korean industries to manufacture in China much more freely than the Japs. So, in fact, South Korea needs China even more than say North Korea. Next time you decide to talk about the “trinkets” of the Chinese, think about what exactly Korea provides to the world. Second-rate cars and electronics from a nation that had a 50 year start on capitalism. If you want to know what the Chinese have provided, just take a close look at the military arsenal of your brethren in Pyongyang, ready to pounce on your ass anyday now.
–> You know you are really throwing shit and messing up you own face? Korea started getting rich not because of Chinese labor and manufacturing (which in fact, for the time being, produces pretty poor products unless outsiders enforce strict quality controls) during the 60s because of government policies taking advantage of opportunities in cheap products for export, construction projects in the Middle East, the sacrifice of people who went to Germany to do work like nursing and coal mining so they can send Korea desperately needed foreign currency, and perhaps most importantly the consumer market in the US.
As for quality of Korean goods I certainly don’t dispute the quality from such countries like Japan and Germany. But it is utter falsehood to say that Korean products are 2nd rate. Korea dominates or is a first class player in computer chips, computer monitor technology, mobile phone technology, and shipbuilding while having a fair share of the world market in such industries as automobiles and steel. And this primacy was not just from five years ago. And the military arsenal of North Korea? I am sorry but their military arsenal is quite outdated and threaten by sheer quantity, proximity, and attitude, with a mix of geopolitical calculation. And by the way, their missile technology was developed by themselves not by Chinese. Or do you think Beijing is idiotic enough to give away missile know-how to North Korea?
Why do you mention trinkets? It referred to exquisite Chinese treasures from its glorious past, not current Chinese products.
BTW, I do agree that China is important to Korea since it is, along with the US, Korea’s largest trading partner and also a source of labor. Which just means we are a normal capitalist society. It certainly doesn’t mean we stand in debt to China any more than China stands in debt to us for investing there.
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As for the coward that refused to leave a name, but decided to open his fat mouth about how “pathetic” the Chinese, I think you need to look at the bullshit you just wrote, and go fuck urself. For all the words you put down, what the fuck was your point exactly? You have a problem with the Chinese, I suggest you head down to your nearest Chinatown, and do some damage with that Tae-Kwon-Do skill you’ve been mastering.
–> True. The guy who wrote it took an insulting tone at the Chinese, aside from the issue of the correctness of his points. I guess he deserves it. But why do you assume he is Korean? Nothing in the passage suggests that and I would be hard put to find a Korean nationalist with such an effective English style.
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And to say that the Chinese were weak and constantly conquered, I think you are pretty retarded, considering the role of Korea being Japan’s bitch during WWII. The only reason the Japs could get into Manchuria is Korea welcomed them with open arms, and supplied plenty of food and women for their soldiers.
–> Throwing more dirt? So Korea was weak in the early 20th century. But what LOGICAL BEARING does that have on the fact that often China WAS weak (as Korea often was too, and all other societies at some point) to the extent that it lost whole slices of territory to invaders? Of course you might feel that the anonymous commenter is Korean and want to get back at him for his insult but as I have noted that is a questionable assumption. And as for Japanese getting into Manchuria, if Japanese used Korean resources it was by way of exploitation not of Koreans giving to the Japanese. As for women offering themselves you probably mean comfort women. But that is from a much later date. Also F*ck O*f you F*cking SOB. I could say some other things but I am not a dirty arrogant F*cking basta*d who digs up other people’s deepest shame and pain in the most callous fashion am I? You should be ashamed of yourself.
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And when you talk about the Chinese dynasties having “indisputable Turkish Origin,” get this, the Korean dynasties have “indisputable Chinese Origin.” So what pisses you off more now? There was no Korea 1500 year ago. If your need to pat yourself on the back of having a deep history by gathering those of multiple ancient kingdoms, great for you. It’s funny how you can be offended that China is doing the same thing.
–>First of all, I don’t know about the Han dynasty having a Turkic strain. It is well-known that the T’ang dynasty did. But it should still be considered a native Chinese dynasty enriched by the vigor of the northern peoples who invaded and eventually settled there and mixed with the Han Chinese. See? I can be fair to the Chinese. Now why don’t you show the same sport by taking back that out-of-the-blue insane idiotic remark that Korean dynasties had Chinese origins or, if you are not going to, giving some evidence and argumentation for your wacky point?
No Korea 1500 years ago? What do you mean? I can make a crazy argument that there was no China in the modern sense of China 1500 years ago since the original Han gene pool has been significantly altered by the invasion of northerners and the mixing of the Han as they moved south away from the northern frontiers. What relation do the modern Chinese have to ancient Chinese exept by the continuity of genes(with modifications), culture, language, etc. By this criteria there surely were Koreans, if not a single Korean state that covered all of the Korean areas, that stand in a ethnic, cultural, and linguistic ancestral relation of continuity to modern Koreans.
Oops. I forgot to place my ID for the above comment. Don’t want to be called coward by Han. Let’s leave it as “Hankyoreh Reader”.
Yes, I completely agree with the Hankyoreh Reader. The bitch who left all the false information above the above must have been a total retard. Korean electronics, computer chips, and automobiles, as well as LCD computers and TVs have just recently topped Japanese products in the same category. Calling them garbage means either that the idiot who wrote so had a brain surgery that went negatively or is mentally disabled. Not to mention, Goguryeo is so not a Chinese kingdom. Goguryeo was founded by tirbes from Buyeo and Tongyae, both ancient kingdoms that were established by groups of ethinc Koreans even before the Korean Three Kingdoms Period. Also, after the fall of the kingdom of Barhae, which had been established by the former citizens of Goguryeo, most of the people of Barhae fled to the flourishing Goryeo kingdom in the south, which had also been established by a Korean general by the name of Wang-Gon. Therefore, many Koreans living in both Manchuria and Korea are descendants of the people of Barhae.
(To Hankyoreh Reader,
There are many Korean natioinalists who have an English level far better than that anonymous bitch)
Thanks DM. I guess that Han had cause to get so offensive since the anonymous comment (the third one above his)was indeed itself offensive. And I played into it as well.
I do hope that everybody could keep their pride without it developing into overbearing arrogance, viciousness, and venom while harnessing tact, sensitivity, fairness, and objectivity.
Anytime, Hankyoreh Reader. If you want to email me, here’s my email address: superjun91@hotmail.com
Glad to see some great comments over here. The only thing I ask is that we avoid referring to other commentors as “bitches,” regardless of how, well, “unorthodox” some of said commentors statements may have been.
Thanks.
PS: I should point out that while I agree that Koguryo and Parhae should be regarded as Korean, there are argument to be made that both kingdoms disappeared well before a “Korean” identity arose. To say that Koguryo was founded by ethnic Koreans can be debated — some would say that Koguryo was founded by an Altaic-language speaking ethnic group that would eventually merge with others to form the “Korean” ethnic group. Considerable linguistic differences existed all the way up through the Three Kingdoms Period (and beyond) — Paekje itself was linguistically split along ethno-class lines — and in the case of Koguryo (and especially Parhae), the majority of the population may not have been “Korean” at all. Of course, this is far from saying that those kingdoms were Chinese — they most certainly were not. It is to say, however, that arguing that Koguryo was ethnically “Korean” might be projecting on to a people an ethnic identity that simply did not exist at the time.
I have found the above postings amusing and thought I’d add my own. I am Chinese American, specifically Southern Chinese and I have Korean American friends and we bicker here and there about stuff like this and I find the elements of the arguments, more or less, the same, except we debate in a tongue-in-cheek fashion and not one of perceived hostility.
This is my understanding of East Asian history. China will always be the Rome of East Asia. Its cultural influence was/is great on its neighbors. Of course, through the span of time, it’s been conquered by non-Chinese. These foreign powers expanded the kingdom only to be assimiliated into the Chinese world. Apart from rape or politically-motivated marriages, the Chinese will sleep with whomever is most convenient. At least, the true Chinese. The Manchurians who ruled China until the early 20th century lent a puritanical ethic to the Chinese who tended to be sexually curious. Today, China is about 93% Han (which include the Cantonese world too, even though they identify themselves at Tang) and the rest are minorities like the Zhuang, Tai, Miao, Koreans, Uighurs, Mongolians, Muslims, Tibetans. Some of these minorities are never really talked about. They have their own culture, but are politically Chinese. Outside of China, you can find mixed marriages with Thais, Malaysians, Indonesians, Filipinos, etc… The overseas Chinese have a wide influence within their communities as well. Chinese are Chinese and have proven to accept others. Whose to say that Chinese do not accept the contributions its neighbors give to China? China, like the Roman empire, has flourished and diminished, has gone through prosperity and decline, but how can anyway deny the greatness of the people, its history, its culture? I’m proud to be Chinese and no matter what anyone posts on some website, I will remain proud. That doesn’t mean I condone what the current Chinese government is doing. That doesn’t mean I disapprove of everything. Also, I don’t speak for every Chinese person either.
CHINESE ATTITUDE TOWARDS KOREANS
As far as the way I was raised, the Koreans didn’t even register a blip on the radar. Not because they were insignificant, but there weren’t that many around me when I was growing up. Sure, I’d see a lot of Japanese or Filipinos (of which my parents did have many opinions), but Koreans, no. I did know about kimchi and I did know about ginseng. As I exposed to more Koreans, I learned more about their culture. Now, as proud as most Chinese are, I think we can also appreciate other cultures, right?
In the historical Chinese texts, they mention the state of Han (not Han as in hanja/hanzi, like the Han dynasty, but the ‘Han’ in Hanguk/Hanguo) that flourished in the period in question in around the area in question. Now, whether they were Chinese or not, they at least were communicating in Chinese. I don’t know if these were indeed the forefathers of the Koreans or not, but the word ‘Han’ (as in Hanguk) is used for both. They did interact within the Chinese world. Again, this does not mean they were Chinese. Whether this was a Chinese state or not, it occupied up to around the Northern part of the Korean peninsula. And if you go there today and start digging around (If the North Koreans didn’t destroy them and if they allow you), you will find Chinese tombs.
Now, does this mean that Koguryo was a part of China? No, not in the way that nations are defined today. Does that mean Koguryo-ites were Chinese? No. You ask any Chinese person and they will tell you that Korean is a different language and a different culture, although 60% of the total Korean vocabulary comes from Chinese (the name for Korea comes from Chinese, as well as countries like Japan and Vietnam). Nevertheless, Korean are Koreans and Chinese are Chinese.
Regardless of what the Chinese think of Koreans, why should Koreans be so touchy or violent towards Chinese, who have been historically friends? Not everyone can condone everything that the Chinese government does. Does Taiwan? Is it because the Koreans feel that they have to defend themselves because they were victims of revisionism with the Japanese? I can understand Koreans and Japanese going at it, but Koreans and Chinese??? Aren’t the Koreans really just sick of Japan’s shit more than anyone else’s?
Is it because no one really remembers that Koreans brought culture to Japan which is like rubbing salt into Korea’s wounds?
In the historical context, Koreans should be proud. They haven’t been completely absorbed into the Chinese world. Of the northern people, who still exists that anyone really knows of today? The Xiong-Nu, Jurchen, Manchurians among all others are all gone. Mongolians are on their way out. Koreans will survive, undoubtedly. Koreans are their own people in their own world with their own history. Who can deny that?
Having said all this, can anyone out there tell me why the modern world for Seoul in Chinese is ‘Hancheng,’ which means the ‘City of Han (as in the Han Dynasty, not Hanguk)?’
Koguryo’s Kingdom was mainly located in Manchuria.
Thus, Koguryo’s history is part of the history of China.
Regardless what korean people say, they cannot change one fact, China own Koguryo’s land for 1500 years. That is much longer than American history, English History and Russian History.
If korean peoples’ logic is correct, then American should move out of the states, English people should go back to Denmark and Germany,Australian should go back to England and then go back to Denmark and Germany.
What a joke.
Han: Quite frankly, I don’t understand the big deal. What exactly is wrong with saying that the Koguryo are part of the history of the Chinese as well? Evolutionary theory already shows that the first man in Asia was near Beijing.
Hankyoreh Reader: No. You are referring to discoveries of bones around Beijing. Evolutionary theory actually shows asian peoples developed their distinct racial features by evolving in the harsh colds of northern asia, i.e. north of China. Get your facts straight and also learn to distinguish between empirical evidence and conjectured theories.
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Han: Get my facts straight? First man in Asia was discovered near Beijing. That??р꽓s a fact. My point was that if someone wants to say the territory in Manchuria is as much Korean as it is Chinese, then dig further back, and say all the peoples of Eastern Asia came from Beijing. No one is saying the lands of Korea belong to China. But if the Koreans can say Manchuria belongs to them, then you will open up this debate. It just depends on how far back you want to go. As for ???밶sian peoples developed their distinct racial features,??? when did this develop? How can you tell me that this was developed in the past two millennium? This was developed in the ???밾arsh cold??? of the Ice Age, when all of Asia was a frozen tundra. If you ask me to get my facts straight, I ask the same to you..
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Han: So, I don’t understand the debate, especially considering the language, writing, dress, and food of the Koguryo were so closely related to the Chinese of that time, it’s pretty obvious the Koguryo were “Chinese” tribes that migrated north.
Hankyoreh: Persians use Arabic script and Germans use ones derived from Latin. In fact Koreans of Shilla and Paekje (and the Japanese also) used Chinese script before developing their own variations. And Jurchens and Khitans develped their own variations of Chinese script. Ditto for Koguryo. Since when is borrowing a script an allowance for inferring that the borrowers are the same as those from whom they borrowed?
Also, the language is related to Chinese? I have yet to see a single scholar, be he (she) Korean, Japanese, or Western classifying the Koguryo language as part of the Sino-Tibetan language group. Are you so ignorant of liguistics to not know that the vast majority of the languages of north asia are actually from the Altaic language group, which is not a whit related to Chinese except for the borrowing of Chinese vocabulary?
Dress? I suggest you look at some old paintings of gatherings of ambassadors from the various countries around T’ang China. Modern scholars can discern Koguryo diplomats by their dress which is as unique from Chinese dress as those of Uighur Turks. (On a related note, I can admit that some features of dress are Chinese influenced without making the inference that those dressed in such a fashion are Chinese. That would be as idiotic as saying that since wearing pants were developed by horse-riding nomads that Chinese are actually Hsiung-nu or that Westerners are Asians.)
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Han: What defines nation? Language? Script? Food? Dress? How can you tell me that the Koguryo and the Chinese did not share similar traits in all these facets? At least these two cultures were more closely related than to say a Middle Eastern or Western culture. While it can also be said that the Chinese took from the Koguryo as well, I do not doubt this. But logically, a peoples such as the ???밐an,??? with populations many times larger than the Koguryo, would have spread their customs to surrounding neighbors.
One more thing; Koreans use chopsticks, no? The Phillipines, Vietnamese, Indians, and Turks do not. I think this is a pretty particular trait, and you can logically assume the peoples of China, Korea, and Japan, very early on, shared many features of everyday life. You seldom see neighboring countries share such similarities when it comes to food. This is something each culture has inherent pride in. And the fact that rice is not something naturally grown on the Korean peninsula or Japan also shows something, when it has become the staple crop of these nations in the past 1000 years. The Chinese have cultured rice for close to 4000 years.
As for the language thing, I have read that the Koguryo and the Chinese were able to communicate fairly easily, without translators, as much of the Koguryo language gained form from the Chinese. Whether that is accurate or not, is something I rather look into myself, than take your word for it.
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Han: As for Zhang Fei, you made a great point that the Chinese luxuries were paid for by the labors of the peasants. I’m sure in Ancient Korea, the aristocracy toiled in the fields and farms themselves to enjoy those luxuries imported from China.
Hankyoreh Reader: What is your point here? Nobody disputed (and Marmot in fact emphasized) that all societies were developed on the back-breaking labor of the commoners and peasants? Are you so offended by any criticism of China that you have to react so defensively with the most negative interpretation of the other’s statements?
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Han: Yes, I guess I am offended. But if you want to get into it, why didn??р꽓t you correct your ???밹ountryman??р꽓s??? na??vete, instead of letting others rant on about the inaccuracies of his statements? Whereas, you can write a thesis paper on the so-called ???밿naccuracies??? of my statements?
Han: And for your refute of the fact that the Chinese were the most powerful and wealthiest of Asian civilizations, I suggest you buy a globe, and spin it around, and acquaint yourself to the part that says “ASIA.”
Hankyoreh: This is really funny. So it comes down to this? Pride by way of a penis-measuring contest? Is this befitting a defender of a great civilization? Do you think you do your country an honor by such childishness? I actually believe China is a great civilization but am often upset by such arrogance which would leave all other countries as mere dots surrounding the circumference of the Middle Kingdom.
But let’s not dwell on my being offended and look at the facts. The current size of China was achieved by the Manchus who happen to be Altaic speaking ethnic relatives of the Mongols and the Koreans.
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Han: Uh, excuse me? If you want to consider size of actual land-mass, the Han, Song, Tang, Ming all added to the landmass that they ruled. The Mongols greatly enhanced their empire beyond the borders you see today. However, we are talking about nation, not land. The Mongols did not settle in the lands they conquered, whereas the ???밐an??? dynasties did. The Manchus regained much of the land lost at the end of the Ming Dynasty, by pacifying nations that claimed to be the rightful heirs to the Chinese. There are still many more peoples that would consider themselves ???밅hinese??? in which-ever context you wish to argue, rather than Korean, Japanese, or any other nationality in Eastern Asia. Nobody is trying to get into a pissing contest, but I was answering a statement by ???밵hang Fei,??? refuting the Marmot??р꽓s statement that the Chinese have been viewed as the wealthiest and powerful society in this region of the world. And regardless of how far you go back, the Chinese have been the wealthiest and most powerful of the East Asian civilizations. Whether this is due to size, population, geographical advantages, length of establishment, etc, is beside the point.
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Han: As for your statement of calling Shanghai a 3rd World City? Well, I have been to Shanghai, Tokyo, major cities in North America and Europe, as well as Seoul. I don’t quite understand your perspective; especially considering that half of Korea is communist as well, and emerged in even deeper poverty. I never saw people starving to death in Shanghai. If Shanghai was 3rd world, I’d really like to know where you rank Pyongyang. Then again, you can’t even go there. And saying the skyscrapers are built on the backs of peasants really shows your intelligence. Once again, the aristocracy of Korea have managed to build their own skyscrapers.
Hankyoreh: Again you display a touchy defensiveness unbefitting a great power like China, not to mention failing to read passages correctly. First of all, although I have not been to Shanghai and cannot comment on it, is it so wrong for someone who was there to make such comments pointing out that the stunning skyline of Shanghai may not be the entire picture? Korea is a major economic power but I have no problem with someone saying that the jaebul system is an outdated relic that needs to be restructured to compete in the 21st century. I can also accept that despite the modern outward flashiness of much of Korea it is decades behind the West in terms of things like a social net and that this actually means, yes, we are indeed behind the US, other English speaking countries, and Western Europe. I can accept and try to catch up, as Korea has done with various degrees of success.
And why bring up Pyongyang? Did anybody say that Shanghai is as bad North Korea? Is saying that Shanghai may have elements of the third world (which is not at all offensive since China got a late start and I certainly don’t expect it to be upto the standards of Tokyo so soon, while fully allowing that one day it may indeed surpass Tokyo) the same as saying it is a basketcase?
And who said Shanghai was built on the back of peasants? Go up and read it again. He brought up Shanghai to make a point using the following dichotomies: Shanghai vs. third world elements on the one hand and the ancient splendor of China vs. the suffering of the peasants that made such splendor possible on the other hand.
Instead of berating others for stupidity you should have enough respect to read carefully
the comments of those you criticize.
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Han: Here is the statement I was referring to:
???밫he abundance of expensive trinkets in imperial palaces may have given the impression of relative advancement, but just as Shanghai has the shiniest collection of skyscrapers around, but remains a Third World city, all of it was an illusion supported by confiscatory levies on Asian peasants. Oriental luxury was simply indicative of the coercive powers of Oriental despots, not any particular advancement.???
I was refuting that Shanghai is a 3rd world city. I am also refuting the fact that the Orient was not at one point equal, if not superior to the advancements of the Occident. Now, re-read what was written, and tell me my statement is so off-the-wall.
And why are you so offended by my statements regarding Pyongyang?
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Han: And if have such a problem with the Chinese, petition your government to ban all diplomatic contact and more specifically, all trade with China, just like it has done with Taiwan. How do you think Korea can be so wealthy today, whereas 5 years ago, Korean products were considered garbage anywhere outside of Central America, and Africa (real sophisticated clientele), that even Koreans perferred Japanese and European products. It’s because the “peasants” of China have allowed Korean industries to manufacture in China much more freely than the Japs. So, in fact, South Korea needs China even more than say North Korea. Next time you decide to talk about the “trinkets” of the Chinese, think about what exactly Korea provides to the world. Second-rate cars and electronics from a nation that had a 50 year start on capitalism. If you want to know what the Chinese have provided, just take a close look at the military arsenal of your brethren in Pyongyang, ready to pounce on your ass any day now.
Hankyoreh: You know you are really throwing shit and messing up you own face? Korea started getting rich not because of Chinese labor and manufacturing (which in fact, for the time being, produces pretty poor products unless outsiders enforce strict quality controls) during the 60s because of government policies taking advantage of opportunities in cheap products for export, construction projects in the Middle East, the sacrifice of people who went to Germany to do work like nursing and coal mining so they can send Korea desperately needed foreign currency, and perhaps most importantly the consumer market in the US.
As for quality of Korean goods I certainly don’t dispute the quality from such countries like Japan and Germany. But it is utter falsehood to say that Korean products are 2nd rate. Korea dominates or is a first class player in computer chips, computer monitor technology, mobile phone technology, and shipbuilding while having a fair share of the world market in such industries as automobiles and steel. And this primacy was not just from five years ago. And the military arsenal of North Korea? I am sorry but their military arsenal is quite outdated and threaten by sheer quantity, proximity, and attitude, with a mix of geopolitical calculation. And by the way, their missile technology was developed by themselves not by Chinese. Or do you think Beijing is idiotic enough to give away missile know-how to North Korea?
Why do you mention trinkets? It referred to exquisite Chinese treasures from its glorious past, not current Chinese products.
BTW, I do agree that China is important to Korea since it is, along with the US, Korea’s largest trading partner and also a source of labor. Which just means we are a normal capitalist society. It certainly doesn’t mean we stand in debt to China any more than China stands in debt to us for investing there.
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Han: No one is denying the fact that the Chinese industrial machine has flourished because of foreign investments, with significant portions from Korean conglomerates. But any economist can tell you that countries and corporations that have invested in China, have an extreme edge to those that didn??р꽓t. Korea is one of those countries. Any economist can also tell you the advantages Korea has had in dealing with the Chinese government, as opposed to the Japanese.
As for the military of North Korea??? if you do not believe the Chinese have had an influence in sharing and aiding the North, just like the U.S. has shared with the South, and the Soviets with the Chinese, then there is no argument to be had. But I get my information from U.S. news sources, reflecting the view of the U.S. government, that the North Koreans have been aided militarily by the Communist Chinese.
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Han: As for the coward that refused to leave a name, but decided to open his fat mouth about how “pathetic” the Chinese, I think you need to look at the bullshit you just wrote, and go fuck urself. For all the words you put down, what the fuck was your point exactly? You have a problem with the Chinese, I suggest you head down to your nearest Chinatown, and do some damage with that Tae-Kwon-Do skill you’ve been mastering.
Hankyoreh: True. The guy who wrote it took an insulting tone at the Chinese, aside from the issue of the correctness of his points. I guess he deserves it. But why do you assume he is Korean? Nothing in the passage suggests that and I would be hard put to find a Korean nationalist with such an effective English style.
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Han: Why do you assume I am not Korean? Btw, there are many Koreans with perfect English in the U.S. that care very much about their country of origin.
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Han: And to say that the Chinese were weak and constantly conquered, I think you are pretty retarded, considering the role of Korea being Japan’s bitch during WWII. The only reason the Japs could get into Manchuria is Korea welcomed them with open arms, and supplied plenty of food and women for their soldiers.
Hankyoreh: Throwing more dirt? So Korea was weak in the early 20th century. But what LOGICAL BEARING does that have on the fact that often China WAS weak (as Korea often was too, and all other societies at some point) to the extent that it lost whole slices of territory to invaders? Of course you might feel that the anonymous commenter is Korean and want to get back at him for his insult but as I have noted that is a questionable assumption. And as for Japanese getting into Manchuria, if Japanese used Korean resources it was by way of exploitation not of Koreans giving to the Japanese. As for women offering themselves you probably mean comfort women. But that is from a much later date. Also F*ck O*f you F*cking SOB. I could say some other things but I am not a dirty arrogant F*cking basta*d who digs up other people’s deepest shame and pain in the most callous fashion am I? You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Han: I should be ashamed? Of digging up the facts of the past, just as it has been done here regarding the Chinese? Btw, whatever happened to actions ???밷efitting the defenders of a great nation???? Seems like a bit too much anger for a scholarly debate here buddy. Someone wished to dig up the past disgraces of the Chinese, so I dug up the past disgraces of the Koreans??? An eye for an eye???
This is the statement by that spineless f*ck I was directing my anger at:
???밄ut what solace is there for a mish mash of people calling themselves chinese who been repeatedly conquered, humilated from day one, whether by nomadic Turks, Khitans, Jurchens, Mongols, Manchus, Japanese, Russians, Americans, etc.???
Chinese have been conquers, as well as the conquered. Pretty needless to bring up the past. However, it??р꽓s safe to say that the Chinese have never been conquered culturally, but rather assimilated the ???foreigners.??р꽓 I really wished we hadn??р꽓t gotten into that, but as you show your anger, I showed mine.
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Han: And when you talk about the Chinese dynasties having “indisputable Turkish Origin,” get this, (one can easily say) the Korean dynasties have “indisputable Chinese Origin.” So what pisses you off more now? There was no Korea 1500 year ago. If your need to pat yourself on the back of having a deep history by gathering those of multiple ancient kingdoms, great for you. It’s funny how you can be offended that China is doing the same thing.
Hankyoreh: First of all, I don’t know about the Han dynasty having a Turkic strain. It is well-known that the T’ang dynasty did. But it should still be considered a native Chinese dynasty enriched by the vigor of the northern peoples who invaded and eventually settled there and mixed with the Han Chinese. See? I can be fair to the Chinese. Now why don’t you show the same sport by taking back that out-of-the-blue insane idiotic remark that Korean dynasties had Chinese origins or, if you are not going to, giving some evidence and argumentation for your wacky point?
No Korea 1500 years ago? What do you mean? I can make a crazy argument that there was no China in the modern sense of China 1500 years ago since the original Han gene pool has been significantly altered by the invasion of northerners and the mixing of the Han as they moved south away from the northern frontiers. What relation do the modern Chinese have to ancient Chinese exept by the continuity of genes(with modifications), culture, language, etc. By this criteria there surely were Koreans, if not a single Korean state that covered all of the Korean areas, that stand in a ethnic, cultural, and linguistic ancestral relation of continuity to modern Koreans.
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Han: I don??р꽓t need to take back anything, as I didn??р꽓t make an offending statement. One of the readers above has made my point that 93% of the current Chinese population have genetic origins of the ???Han??р꽓 race. However, besides those in Tibet and Muslim-rebels in Sinjiang, it??р꽓s safe to say that the 100% of 1.4 billion Chinese around the world consider themselves very much Chinese, as I??р꽓m sure all Koreans consider themselves Korean. I don??р꽓t believe I ever claimed the Chinese have the right to the Korean Peninsula. I don??р꽓t think the Communist Chinese Gov??р꽓t has ever made that claim either. But if the Chinese have proof that they can trace the ancestry of the ???Northeast??р꽓 to the Koguryo, I don??р꽓t see why the Koreans can be offended. Realistically, they are only doing this so the mass flooding of North Koreans into the ???Northeast,??р꽓 will not claim the lands as their own.
On a separate note, one of my closest friends, who happens to be Korean, comes from, what he describes, as a very traditional family. His father is a scholar, and has written many books about the establishment of the Korean nation. Their family has more Korean-nationalist pride than anyone I know. He even thinks Koreans should be Buddhist rather than taking the Christianity of the West. Yet, he claims to be the direct descendent of Zhu Ge Liang, the famous scholar, general, and tactician of the ???밨omance of Three Kingdoms??? period, in Chinese history. And he has no problem with being a descendent of the Chinese. I know I don??р꽓t speak for all the Chinese, but from this example, I surely know you don??р꽓t speak for all Koreans either. I did not come here to get into an argument about which nation owns what. I wanted to understand a bit more about the Korean perspective. And my remarks are just responses to these ridiculous claims and insults of the Chinese. So I really don??р꽓t see how I am being more defensive than you, when all these statements have been written because the Chinese decided to spend some money on anthropological research of the ???Northeast.??р꽓
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I’ve had to delete a couple of the comments here, as things looked like they were deteriorating into a flame war rather than an exchange of ideas. I’m glad to see people take an interest in this subject, and all views are welcome, but as I’ve stressed in previous (and later) posts, I’d prefer it if commentors kept things civil. Talk of Korean “hoochie-girls,” “low-class GIs,” and questioning the ethnicity of posters are usually unappreciated, and in this case, off-topic as well.
Sorry about that Marmot… I should’ve tried to stay on point. Got a bit too defensive over the personal attacks.
So that’s it? No more Chinese insults?
Are any of you aware that the language of Koguryo, as suggested by phonetic transcriptions in Chinese characters in the San Guo Chi of China, as well as transcriptions of Koguryo toponyms (i.e., place names) in the much later Samguk Sagi of Korea, was NOWHERE close to being directly related to the Shilla language, which is the ancestor of the Korean language? In fact, certainly to the chagrin of thick-skulled Korean nationalists, most of the basic vocabulary of the Koguryo language appears to be directly related to the JAPANESE language. I think it is silly for Koreans to object to China’s financing of an archaeological/anthropological survey of that country’s northeastern regions because such an action would somehow violate Korea’s “cultural sovereignty” over the history of a nation, namely Koguryo, that was destroyed BY THE ANCESTORS OF THE KOREAN NATION over 1300 years ago. I am sure that a Koguryoan, if one were alive today, would be enraged if he heard that Chinese OR Koreans were trying to claim the history of his nation for their own.
Listening to Koreans talking smack about Chinese is like when you see a Chihuahua barking like he’s the big dog on the block, at a much larger dog (German Shepard for example). The German Shepard doesn’t even bother to bark back. He just thinks, “pathetic little shrimp, you aren’t even worth my time.”
What I’m getting at is…Hey prideful koreans, you hear that sound?…..its the sound of nobody giving a crap but yourselfs, so cheers and give yourself another pat on your back.
Zhong Guo domination!
China Rules,
“Zhong Guo domination!”… over what, the Seven Seas? Are you proud to have lunched Tibet? To have gunned down your own children 1989 at T?쨈iennamin Square? Or to frightening your Taiwanese brethren?
Listen Ruler, I have no doubt about the greatness & glory of the civilization and culture the Chinese have been able to built throughout her history(and the ancient Koreans have borrowed heavily). Further I don?쨈t doubt, that you have been und will be the future the biggest boy here in this district called NE Asia, besides the US friends, because they are the strongest boys in town - no doubt about that.
Yes, Korea is small and divided, but if you come here for a pissing contest, we little (but very pissed off) Koreans will bite off your family jewels. Would it be worth it? NO!
BTW, this dog-metaphor was not very clever - don?쨈t you know, that Koreans eat dogmeat…
Wow, great comeback. This whole thing started with some shitheads insulting the Chinese for funding archaelogical studies on their OWN land. For the Koreans didn’t object to their own “brethrens” comments, these retaliatory remarks were obviously aimed at you as well. But it’s obvious Communist China doesn’t care too much for Korean protests. If there was some
“biting” to come out of a Chinese-Korean conflict, I’m sure we will all know the result. I’m sure you would rather not think of the consequences of employee uprisings by the Chaebol when Samsung, LG, Hyundai are end up being subsidiaries of the Chinese Commmunist Party.
Brave Mr. anonymous!
“Sign your name and cross my heart (kiss my butt?).” - Terence Trent D’arby
How are you going to talk about China’s issues with Tibet and Taiwan, when Koreans have their own problems. Take a look at a map when you get the chance. Try finding an English map, as the Korean maps seem to disregard international boundaries between North and South.
Tianenman Square? People aren’t starving in China.
Tibet? If I remember correctly, S. Korea didn’t exactly have benevolent leaders post-Korean War.
Taiwan? How much blood has been shed between the Mainland and Taiwan? Unlike Koreans, we don’t shoot our own “brethren.” Real quick, how many times did u fire across the DMZ, or rely on Americans to settle disputes by placing them in harm’s way, while complaining about every little thing that happens. Ungrateful.
I think Korguyo can be a part of both Korean and Chinese history since the country spanned the modern borders of both Korea and China. I don’t think it’s a mutually exclusive concept with one country necessarily having sole rights.
To draw a parallel, all the Southwestern states of the United States, such as California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are part of both American and Mexican (and even Spanish) history since at one time, they were ruled by Mexico but now, are within the borders of the United States. Similarly, the once independent Duchy of Burgundy is now considered part of both modern French and German history since it’s territorial holdings span the modern borders of both countries.
So, when you study the history of the Manchuria region, currently a physical part of China, I think it’s valid to include all of the former periods, even when parts of it was ruled by a different country.
If you look at China today, it includes the territories of so many heterogenious populations that once formed independent political entities, such as the Liao, Xixia, Jin, Bohai (Parhae), Mongolia, Dali, Khotan, Tibet, Korguyo, Northern Wei, etc., which were viewed as wholly independent countries at the time of their existence but now are either partially or entirely within Chinese borders.
In terms of Korea claiming exclusive rights to Korguyo and Bohai (Parhae), the same problem arises on the Korean side, since Silla considered and dealt with Korguyo and Bohai as separate entities from itself. There was no common consciousness at the time of their existance that they were all part of the same country.
Thus, I think it’s valid to say that Korguyo belongs to both Korean and Chinese history rather than exclusively to one or the other.
Hey all,
“Chinese” is a fluid nationality. An anonymous poster stated that Chinese had been humiliated from day one — but who had been humiliated from day one? The Han people? There hasn’t been such a thing as “Han” for many centuries, because the “foreign” groups mixed with the Han people since a long time ago. The “Han” Chinese people today probably have as much Han blood in them as, say, Toba Xianbei blood. The poster’s choice of “natives” being Chinese and the Khitans, Jurchens, etc, as not, is an arbitrary choice, as arbitrary as the Chinese supermacists’ claims.
And in fact, there is no native Chinese at all, if humanity became in Africa, then lineage in China was at one point some form of immigrant and invader.
I believe that we Chinese need to recognize Kokuryo history and its impact to the later Korean culture. Nobody can claim history: Kokuryo belongs to Kokuryo, not Chinese or Korean. If you believe that your ancestor is from Kokuryo, then its history is yours. If you believe that many Koreans can trace lineage back to Kokuryo, then its history is theirs. But can you deny this to the Manchurians who identify themselves as Chinese?
I haven’t heard much from Chinese government trying to claim Kokuryo history, but I’m not denying it (I just don’t know enough about it.)
Let’s all be careful about thinking about history. All the talk about “pure blood,” “pure ethnicity,” “glorious history,” “exclusive rights” can easily lead to the same kind of stuff that came out of Nazist eugenics.
Peace,
Michael
4-29-2004
I understand china is large and has more resources but thats really the only reason china has an advantage. “Chinese” have always been docile and pushover weaklings. Those responsible for extending china’s borders were not chinese but the asians that were are similar to korean stock. I see evidence of their negative stereotyping in america and it is based off of the chinese. Why do they think they encompass every talent and ability falsely? The stupidity and blind spots of political ego. Whats funny to me is how korea can rile up so many while others consistently are condescending to it. If korea was stronger and not divided, asia would be stronger. Unfortunately, the idiot masses from all three northeast nations do not recognize or care about this.
This is an example of the molesting of smaller nations by larger ones. Its just a plain fact, thought it is legitimized and rationalized by every contrived viewpoint and excuse possible. Koguyro is definitely(speaking from an honest person) more korean than china and it definitely had ties with the people of korea. The argument that korguryo is not exactly chinese or korean in modern comparison is outright dull. The koreans today are descendents of koguryo whether their is major cultural change after the loss of this territory. Should an adopted child believe there are no genetic ties to their biologic parent because they are raised by another? If north korea ever became absorbed completly into china and under the chinese umbrella, it would still be false to claim that north korea was always ‘chinese’. This is the same fallacious argument. Korguryo (at that time) was korean though this territory was lost.
“It’s not a rag-tag band of renegade historians, it’s an entire historical institution embarking on a government-backed project costing $2.5 billion. It’s more than just a claim, it’s a massive undertaking to forever rewrite history in the way they see fit. I seriously don’t understand how Koguryo could be seen as being so important to the PRC, but for us, if our claims on Koguryo’s history are lost, our national identity will be put in crisis, as Koguryo is widely regarded by Koreans as the foundation of Korean culture and heritage. But SK government has been reluctant to take any action due to economic ties with the PRC. China doesn’t need us, but WE desperately need THEM. South Korea’s trade surplus with China has exceeded $15 billion annually, our government simply isn’t willing to give that up for something as “trivial” (as they see it) as ancient history.”
listen, guys,,,,,
if you look at any continent in the world, boundaries change, new populations arrive and leave, and new/existing identities new/existing culture flourishes and grows,,,,,
there are of course, political factors involved by china, and of course this can be any large country that wishes to claim any field of interest, ie history etc,,,,,,to make their presence known,,,,,
but the truth is known that koguryo was ethnically close,or perhaps even the same group of families that roamed the siberian plains that formed present day korea,,,,, the this can be viewed with the similiarities in languages(altaic group language) as well as the cognates it shares between the altaic tribes that were once recognized in Manchuria, Korea, Mongolia, turkish etc,,,Yes, languages change and adopt new vocabulary by their neighbors korea did from china like turkish did from arabic and persian
listen, guys,,,,,
if you look at any continent in the world, boundaries change, new populations arrive and leave, and new/existing identities new/existing culture flourishes and grows,,,,,
there are of course, political factors involved by china, and of course this can be any large country that wishes to claim any field of interest, ie history etc,,,,,,to make their presence known,,,,,
but the truth is known that koguryo was ethnically close,or perhaps even the same group of families that roamed the siberian plains that formed present day korea,,,,, the this can be viewed with the similiarities in languages(altaic group language) as well as the cognates it shares between the altaic tribes that were once recognized in Manchuria, Korea, Mongolia, turkish etc,,,Yes, languages change and adopt new vocabulary by their neighbors korea did from china like turkish did from arabic and persian
also, i also want to add that there is no ” claiming ” involved except from countries that need to “claim” something,,,,,, i do not think the koreans or the nation needs to claim koguryo as their “history” or lineage,,,,,,, it is a known fact,,,,,,